neutral or grounded conductor

[justdoc]

I was taking a small refersher course on a site and saw the wording a 120volt circuit has a breaker ,a hot wire , a neutral, and a ground
I have always been told and taught and read that the neutral carries the the unbalanced load between two hots/circuits
I was always taught that the 120 circuit was a hot, a grounded conductor and a ground
Has this changed is the white wire now being called the neutral on a 120 volt circuit or when would you use a neutral in a 120 circuit ?
This course is on a very well known site and their products are widely used so I am confused about the neutral in their statement
I did write the folks and ask them about this and did get a reply
"Thank you, CXXXXXX, for taking your time to email me. There is indeed a neutral in a 120 circuit. It may or may not be used but it is there."

Maybe I have been away from the office to long
Thanks
Justdoc

 

[roger]

Has this changed is the white wire now being called the neutral on a 120 volt circuit

Yes it is, the CMP figured they needed to dumb down some more wording for us. This was changed in the 2008.

Roger

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It is all semantics and it seems the code keeps moving in the direction of changing the terminology here.

In the 2008 the neutral conductor is in definitions while it did not appear there in 2005.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
I did write the folks and ask them about this and did get a reply
"Thank you, CXXXXXX, for taking your time to email me. There is indeed a neutral in a 120 circuit. It may or may not be used but it is there."

The neutral may or may not be used in a 120 volt circuit?????

 

[justdoc]

neutral or grounded conductor

Thanks all for the replies ,that at least clears it up.
Don that is why I ask where it would be used as I questioned the same statement all I got back was "thanks for contacting us again please overlook any misspellings "
The sentence should have read "is used " and "not a may or may not".
Still concerned that the person that replied to me could not give me the same answer that all of you have.
Guess if you just ran a hot and a ground then the neutral/grounded conductor would not be used lol
Just so you all know I am not doing any major electrical anymore ,just a switch or recep replacement here and there .
Thanks for clearing this up

 

[LarryFine]

Doc, welcome to the forum!

I have always been told and taught and read that the neutral carries the the unbalanced load between two hots/circuits
I was always taught that the 120 circuit was a hot, a grounded conductor and a ground

Technically, you're correct. Since the grounded conductor is almost always brought out from the neutral, it's often called the neutral.

Plus, 'neutral' is easier to say than 'grounded conductor.'

 

[renosteinke]

I'm just thinking of all the confusion, over the years, between the groundED conductor and the groundING conductor.

Sure, the engineer types had their point with their desire to reserve 'neutral' to the IEEE definition (more on that later), but the same guys got things all tangled up themselves in Article 250. (Not to mention the whold 'grounding vs. bonding' discussion). So, we've seen some changes in the past few cycles.

Of course, there is the continuing project to clean up 250. Just as important, the NEC began using the term 'neutral' in those instances where such use doesn't do too much violence to the tender types at the IEEE.

What's the difference between a 'neutral' and a 'grounded conductor?' In the vast majority of instances, there's absolutely no difference at all.

The IEEE defines the 'neutral' as any point that is at equal potential to ALL energized ('hot") conductors. If you source of power is either a three-phase 'wye' transformer, or a single-phase 'center tap' transformer, the neutral wire is exactly the same as the 'grounded conductor.'

The distinction arises when we use a 'delta' transformer. In that case (I'll use a 240 delta for iluistration), you'll measure 120V between the white wire and two of the 'hots,' then measure 208 to the remaining 'hot.' Thus, the white wire is not a 'neutral,' as there is a difference in the potentials. The white wire is 'grounded' but it's not 'neutral.'

We're electricians, not EE's. We're not probing the inner mysteriens of microchips. For our purposes, the terms are interchangeable.

 

[LarryFine]

The distinction arises when we use a 'delta' transformer. In that case (I'll use a 240 delta for iluistration), you'll measure 120V between the white wire and two of the 'hots,' then measure 208 to the remaining 'hot.' Thus, the white wire is not a 'neutral,' as there is a difference in the potentials. The white wire is 'grounded' but it's not 'neutral.'

It is still considered the neutral by us electricians and by the NEC.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
The IEEE defines the 'neutral' as any point that is at equal potential to ALL energized ('hot") conductors. ...

So the grounded conductor of a corner grounded delta is a neutral?

 

[renosteinke]

For the IEEE definition, look to earlier NEC texts, which had it buried in the Motor section, I believe.

Otherwise, No. The corner of a corner grounded delta system has 0 volts to ground, and full voltage to the other 'corners,' so they're not the same potential.

I suppose I could have simply parroted the actual IEEE definition, but then I would be doing your job. If you want to quibble with grammar, look up the source yourself- then argue with them.

 

[mivey]

So the grounded conductor of a corner grounded delta is a neutral?

Using that criteria it would be. Similar to the neutral on an open wye.

You & most of the rest of us know this:

The "neutral" is just a conductor. It just happens to be tied to ground. In some cases, it can reduce the number of conductors needed to supply a group of loads (i.e. it can carry the unbalanced load for phase-displaced conductors).

The neutral point is a different matter and its voltage to a remote reference may or may not coincide with the voltage of the "neutral" conductor.

Grounded conductor is a better term but is a mouthful.

 

[iwire]

So the grounded conductor of a corner grounded delta is a neutral?

Thank you!

 

[iwire]

You & most of the rest of us know this:

The "neutral" is just a conductor. It just happens to be tied to ground. In some cases,

I don't know that and I disagree with it.

The neutral is more than just a grounded conductor, it is a conductor that carries only the imbalance of the ungrounded conductor.

Consider corner grounded delta again.

 

[mivey]

I don't know that and I disagree with it.

The neutral is more than just a grounded conductor, it is a conductor that carries only the imbalance of the ungrounded conductor.

Consider corner grounded delta again.

Think again. They are calling the grounded conductor of a 2-wire circuit a neutral. In that case it is not acting to carry any load imbalance but carries the full single-phase load.

I said "in some cases" it does carry the imbalance.

 

[iwire]

Think again. They are calling the grounded conductor of a 2-wire circuit a neutral. In that case it is not acting to carry any load imbalance but carries the full single-phase load.

In my opinion what you describe is just a grounded conductor, not a neutral.

And yes, I know that flies in the face of the NECs new definition.

 

[mivey]

In my opinion what you describe is just a grounded conductor, not a neutral.

And yes, I know that flies in the face of the NECs new definition.

I agree but like Roger said, they felt compelled to dumb it down for our industry.