400.7(11)- Proposal based on PowerBridge thread

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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Dennis, this is the better verison.
Agreed. I think you should consider making the distinction between plugging the cord into a premises receptacle and plugging it into a power-conditioning device. The former could indeed be seen as just a substitution for hard-wiring, and the latter could make it clear there is an "ulterior motive" beyond avoiding such.

Of course, as with just about anything else in the NEC and the rest of our work, it's hard to protect the ignorant from themselves and, to a degree, each other. In fact, I agree the installation should fall under the same requirements for other building-wiring rules as far as who may and under what licensing conditions.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I think the wording "used to power a flanged inlet and outlet" would restrict this to only flanged outlets, not standard devices such as duplex receptacles.
You're right. Maybe "... used to power a receptacle by way of a flanged inlet or similar connector, and using Ch 3 wiring methods between ..." or similar.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If this is the problem,

'ground loops that can cause problems with the TV?s. '

I'd put it first and substitute 'reduce problems due to' or 'eliminate' for 'control.'
It might be better to state the intended connection, such as "... to be powered by the same power conditioning equipment as the rest of the system ..." or similar.

To state the ground-loop or noise as reasoning may give them rise to say "Then figure out how to eliminate the ground loop on the low-voltage side."
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Does one normally power more than one outlet thru the flanged inlet or one inlet and one outlet.

I was thinking in the proposal to add the flanged inlet may only supply one outlet. What say you?
I've never done more than one, and that's a great point. One outlet per inlet works well. Maybe specify the cord gauge, too.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Thanks to all for the input. I did make a few changes but I want to sit on it a day or so. Keep the thoughts coming.
 

G._S._Ohm

Senior Member
Location
DC area
proposed strategy

proposed strategy

I'd find sections that are most relevant to your subject from, e.g.,
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/ROP/NEC2008Article340-409.pdf
and search on any and all reasons for rejection.

If you can avoid them you have a better chance of being accepted.

Here are some excerpts:

-The proposed text is not necessary.
-The term “X” is well understood and accepted and disagrees with . . .
-The current wording allows sufficient traditional uses
-X has been used in the Code since 1959 and is more encompassing than the language in the substantiation
-The panel intended this provision be used only in industrial applications
-this is unenforceable by an AHJ

I'd also look at the votes that were not unanimous because it may show how they think. If you can figure out the motives of the dissenting voters, that's even better.

Just like old caselaw may not be good caselaw, stay relatively recent in your search. You may want to find an online Roget's Thesaurus or an electrical dictionary.
 
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Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Okay here it is again

400.7(A)(11) Where used to power one flanged inlet or similar device, and the one outlet that it powers, and where the wiring between the inlet and the outlet is a chapter 3 wiring method.



This will allow identify products used for TV?s and similar equipment, and their components that are listed for this use as being NEC approved. Currently these products are listed, however there is nothing in the NEC that approves this method with the use of a rubber cord.
Specifically there are products that provide a flanged inlet that is used to power a flat screen TV or other similar equipment from a remote location. The wiring thru the walls would not be connected to the wiring system of the house but would be energized only when a rubber cord, similar to a computer monitor cord, is used to energize a listed flanged inlet from the TV?s remote units such as surge suppressors or UPS. This flanged inlet is connected to a wiring method approved by chapter 3. At the other end is a standard receptacle in which the flat screen is plugged into. This allows the TV?s to be on the same circuit and to control ground loops that can cause problems with the TV?s.
This is a flanged inlet but the device can be similar in nature as the one in the ad below.
5278SS_LL.JPG


ry%3D480



These products are listed with two sets of cords and both flanged inlet and outlet receptacle.. Without trying to endorse a product, here is one of the products available.

ry%3D480
 

mivey

Senior Member
The wiring thru the walls would not be connected to the wiring system of the house
Would
"would not be permanently connected to the wiring system"
work better or not?

...from the TV?s remote units such as surge suppressors or UPS.
Your section wording did not speak to this restriction. As worded, the cord could be plugged into any outlet.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Thanks for the links. I see I have some reading to do.

I'd find sections that are most relevant to your subject from, e.g.,
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/ROP/NEC2008Article340-409.pdf
and search on any and all reasons for rejection.

If you can avoid them you have a better chance of being accepted.

In case you missed it, you are behind the curve of the conversation on this. Linking to an entire ROP and saying, "Do some research" while someone is constructing a proposal is akin to saying, "Don't forget to breathe when you sit down at the computer." Just about everyone engaged in this conversation has ROP/ROC pdfs on their computer, and some even have paper copies dating back to before I was a gleam in my daddy's eye.

Either find some specific examples of someone else who has proposed something similar, cite the reference (i.e. 2002 ROP 2-156) and perhaps make a suggestion for tackling that obstacle.

Here are some excerpts:

-The proposed text is not necessary.
-The term ?X? is well understood and accepted and disagrees with . . .
-The current wording allows sufficient traditional uses
-X has been used in the Code since 1959 and is more encompassing than the language in the substantiation
-The panel intended this provision be used only in industrial applications
-this is unenforceable by an AHJ

Most of those are boilerplate responses for when they just don't want to budge, they tell little to us about how to get them to change.


Again, I realize it must be exciting to have found a relevant resource outside of wikipedia to link to, but this is not a link dump. Try to help the OP directly without relying so much on links.

I know this may sound blunt, but it's with the best of intentions and meant to help you with finding the context of your posts in this forum.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
First, as to making a proposal in general ....

There is a place in the 'substantiation' part of the proposal where it is appropriate to post links to someone's product, links to forum discussions, etc. These are appropriate in demonstrating that there is an issue to resolve, a need for a change.

Of course, to do so you also must identify just exactly what it is that needs change or clarification.

Regarding the "Powerbridge" specifically, the code issue appears to hinge upon the use of this product as a substitute for the fixed wiring of a building.

One very real possibility is that the panel will see a need to clarify that such an arrange is indeed part of the fixed wiring or circuit extension - despite assertions that the use of an extension cord proves that it is not.

Another possibility is that the panel will itself assert that it is up to the manufacturer and NRTL to instruct users that the product is not intended for direct connection to house wiring, and requires other freestanding elements (such as a UPS) for compliant use. Not too likely; as we saw with 'power strips,' it is more likely that a product standard will be written that precludes such an arrangement, perhaps by requiring the use of non-NEMA plug patterns.

As with 'power strips,' the main source of opposition to this product will be that it makes it far too easy to introduce code violations, through the misuse of the product.

This is exactly the dilemma faced by folks who sell tear gas, lock picks, pornography, marijuana growing equipment, and drug paraphanalia: how do you market something that is so useful in breaking the law?

For that matter, this is the issue law enforcement confronts daily. Do you just 'happen' to have antifreeze, ammonia, and cold medicine - or are you setting up a drug lab?

A successful proposal will have to calm these concerns.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I partially agree with the above post however it is not the cmp job to make sure it isn't abused. The code is there to follow and abuse happens all the time and every code issue. The fact that you don't follow code is a misuse of the product you use-- how is the cmp going to avoid that.

I tried to specify in my post that it is one inlet for one outlet so I thought that would cover it's use. It is not likely this product will be used in many other applications.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
One very real possibility is that the panel will see a need to clarify that such an arrange is indeed part of the fixed wiring or circuit extension - despite assertions that the use of an extension cord proves that it is not.
Not that it uses an extension cord - that it is an extension cord.

This is exactly the dilemma faced by folks who sell tear gas, lock picks, pornography, marijuana growing equipment, and drug paraphanalia: how do you market something that is so useful in breaking the law?
Not sell thing that one might use for illegal purposes? How would one prevent, say, someone making a suicide cord for generator use and using using it without an interlock?

One can buy a dryer cord and a twist-lock plug and vow to never leave the main breaker on when the generator is running. Laws won't prevent injuries or electrocutions.

Not related to the subject, but man-made, victimless crimes should be weeded (pardon the pun) out of the mix. (Please, nobody respond so this need not be deleted.)
 
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