Flexible cords and listings

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Jacob S

Senior Member
So after the whole powerbridge post, I have come up with a question. Although I did not read every post in that huge thread, I read enough to see that one of the main objections to the product was that flexible cord was being used as a replacement for a chapter 3 wiring method, since it was a ?permanent? installation.

I also know that it was found that even though the product was listed as an assembly, since the cord is not compliant with the NEC, the product cannot be used compliantly. Basically saying that everything installed must meet all standards of the NEC, and the listing is not necessarily applicable.

Now, I thought I have read for years on this forum that listed products can be built to standards that are different than the NEC, but since they are listed that way, they are compliant to install. Some examples that include flexible cord:

*Gas direct vent water heaters that come with a cord and plug for connection. This is an appliance that will be installed permanently for 10 years?way longer than any home entertainment setup. It is permantly crimped/soldered into place. The units are listed and intended to be plugged in straight from the manufacturer. Since this is an NEC violation, what are you supposed to do? If the unit was listed to be plugged in, you can?t modify it and hardwire it. There is no provision in the NEC that I know that allows this installation, such as those found for dishwashers and garbage disposals.

*Industrial machinery that was built and listed in a panel shop. I have seen tons of flexible cord used in this setting where a chapter 3 wiring method could have easily been used?even where flexibility, portability, serviceability was not necessary. But since it is listed, it is ok??

I know I can come up with more, but I am confused as to when a listing can override the NEC and when the NEC can override a listing.

Thanks!
 
fishin' electrician

fishin' electrician

Senior Member
Location
Connecticut
I don't think a listing can override the NEC, but the NEC can override a listing.

I guess the flexible cord that sits for extended periods of time in chlorinated water isn't quite as bad as one that is feeding a flanged inlet that then feeds an 80 or so watt television. :roll:
 
S'mise

S'mise

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Jacob S said:
So after the whole powerbridge post, I have come up with a question. Although I did not read every post in that huge thread, I read enough to see that one of the main objections to the product was that flexible cord was being used as a replacement for a chapter 3 wiring method, since it was a ?permanent? installation.

I also know that it was found that even though the product was listed as an assembly, since the cord is not compliant with the NEC, the product cannot be used compliantly. Basically saying that everything installed must meet all standards of the NEC, and the listing is not necessarily applicable.

Now, I thought I have read for years on this forum that listed products can be built to standards that are different than the NEC, but since they are listed that way, they are compliant to install. Some examples that include flexible cord:

*Gas direct vent water heaters that come with a cord and plug for connection. This is an appliance that will be installed permanently for 10 years?way longer than any home entertainment setup. It is permantly crimped/soldered into place. The units are listed and intended to be plugged in straight from the manufacturer. Since this is an NEC violation, what are you supposed to do? If the unit was listed to be plugged in, you can?t modify it and hardwire it. There is no provision in the NEC that I know that allows this installation, such as those found for dishwashers and garbage disposals.

*Industrial machinery that was built and listed in a panel shop. I have seen tons of flexible cord used in this setting where a chapter 3 wiring method could have easily been used?even where flexibility, portability, serviceability was not necessary. But since it is listed, it is ok??

I know I can come up with more, but I am confused as to when a listing can override the NEC and when the NEC can override a listing.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

What is a violation is when flexable cord is being used attached to a building surface.
If a ul listed appliance comes with a cord and is installed permanantly in most cases its fine. An example is a garbage disposal under your kitchen sink. It often has a cord to eliminate vibration and yet it is installed permanently.

Industrial machinery is not building wiring and does not fall under the NEC. It's governed by NFPA79
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
Jacob S said:
I know I can come up with more, but I am confused as to when a listing can override the NEC and when the NEC can override a listing.
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Whenever the AHJ says so because the any real overriding to be done is done by them. They can use the listing as a basis for acceptance of a product. It does not mean they have to accept it. If they feel like there is an issue it is their call, listing or no listing. There are many listed products disallowed by some jurisdictions.
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
LarryFine said:
The proponents are saying that the PowerBridge, et al, despite using approved materials and methods, aren't building wiring either.
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And some that say since this product is used instead of building wiring, it becomes a substitute for building wiring.

The problem that some would point out is that there is no building wiring method that uses a remote plug-in type UPS so this is the only means to get it done. Others would point out that a remote plug-in UPS could be called a want instead of a need.

It really is an interesting conflict of interpretations and I hope we get some kind of official ruling.
 
J

Jacob S

Senior Member
So, Essentially the flexible cord on my water heater example is a violation, since the cord is being used in place of a ch3 wiring method, but since most AHJ's are ok with it, its fine?

So, listed items can violate the NEC all day long, but it comes to whether or not the AHJ will accept it?

I think I am now more confused as to where the line is drawn. Thanks for everyone's answers so far!
 
mivey

mivey

Senior Member
Jacob S said:
So, Essentially the flexible cord on my water heater example is a violation, since the cord is being used in place of a ch3 wiring method, but since most AHJ's are ok with it, its fine?
Click to expand...
Don't get the cord that is used to connect cord-connected appliances mixed up with wiring methods. They are treated differently. The appliance cord plugged into a receptacle is allowed. Plugging an appliance cord into another cord may not be.
Jacob S said:
So, listed items can violate the NEC all day long, but it comes to whether or not the AHJ will accept it?
Click to expand...
An appliance cord is allowed per the NEC.
Jacob S said:
I think I am now more confused as to where the line is drawn. Thanks for everyone's answers so far!
Click to expand...
Some of your confusion comes from not reading where flexible cords are allowed in the NEC. Just because they are allowed in one place does not mean they are allowed every place. Just because they are dis-allowed in one place does not mean they are dis-allowed every place.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
mivey said:
It really is an interesting conflict of interpretations and I hope we get some kind of official ruling.
Click to expand...
Jason was kind enough to send me a PowerBridge kit. I'm going to build a portable mock-up and take it to my local head inspectors for their opinions.


readydave8 said:
I wonder what Jason's opinion is?
Click to expand...
Well, duh! ;)
 
renosteinke

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
After the PowerBridge silliness, I really don't relish getting into this mess again.

One critical element of the PowerBridge was not that it uses flexible cord, but that it used an extension cord. Another element was that the element that the cord powered was most definitely part of the structure.

Both elements are not present for an actual appliance - that is, something that actually uses the electricity. There are situation where the use of a cord & plug is a perfectly acceptable means of disconnect. (Indeed, the UL pump standard was recently changed to clarify this point - but that's another discussion).

You would have a problem if you also needed an extension cord to reach the nearest outlet. You might have a problem if you installeed a longer pigtail.
 
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