Fire Alarm & Elevators: Monitoring Shunt Trip

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gadfly56

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New Jersey
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Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I agree with Bob's post above and would add that most elevator inspection agencies won't go with anything that is not listed as part of an assembly which is why Bussman power modules are the way to go.

The question I have (I have an elevator in the works with the same requirement) is why the need to monitor it if the shunt trip feed is from the elevator breaker itself?

Has anyone been required to have the 30 sec delay for the shunt operation yet?
Roger

Yes, I have. It was in Newark, NJ. Had to make a program change during the final inspection to satisfy the AHJ. It doesn't make sense, because usually you don't face the prospect of a shunt trip unless the fire fighters are operating the car. Alternate and primary recall floors don't likely apply by this point because the building is full of smoke. So, you pick one and hope it dosen't open up to an inferno before the sprinkler goes off. Personally, I'd rather be in a dead car with water pouring down all around me.
 

George Stolz

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Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
If there is smoke somewhere other than the control room but close to the elevator, then the elevator recalls. When it is in recall, then you have to have a fireman key to prove you're aware of the danger but are authorized to make the decision to use the elevator anyway.

If the fire is in the control room, use of the elevator is out of the question.

(Edits underlined)
 
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nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
OK then what is the purpose of the fire fighter key operation ? How does it work ?

It allows total control of the elevator. The doors will not open unless you hold the open door button down. The doors will only open as far as you want. This allows a firefighter to peek, check for smoke or fire on a floor. The elevator will not move floor to floor until you select the floor.

Generally, the firefighters will use the elevator to raise men and equipment to one or two floors below the floor on fire. They can rely on the fire resistive construction of the elevator shaft to make it safe for transportation. smoke in the shaft isn't a problem (think SCBA), its heat. That's why a heat is used to shunt power.
 
Firefighter phase II (in cab operations) can only be performed after phase I recall has been initiated (ASME 17.1 section 2.27.3.3). Phase I (elevator recall) can be initiated several ways--designated lobby detector, remaining lobby detectors, and shaft, pit, and control room smoke detector activation. Fireman can also manually initiate phase I recall by use of their key at the designated lobby outside the cab. Keep in mind shaft, pit, and control room smoke detectors are required to initiate a "flashing" fireman's hat as opposed to lobby detectors which are "steady"--this is to warn firemen that there is more potential danger of using the elevator as opposed to a "steady" fireman's hat, It also warns them that shunting of elevator power is now more probable. They can still use the elevator via phase II in cab controls--but at their own risk.

As mentioned previously, the theory is that smoke detectors being used for phase I recall will detect smoke and recall the elevator and occupants to the appropriate level prior to disconnecting elevator motor power via a heat detector in the shaft, pit, or control room. The heat detectors, in turn, are to shunt power prior to sprinkler head release for a couple of reasons--water on incab elevator controls can cause unpredictable and unwanted operations and also to prevent the operation of those elevators that could be affected by wet brakes caused by sprinkler water release. Electrocution of occupants is not a major concern as elevator motor power is only required to be disconnected and not incab lights, fans, etc..--proper grounding should prevent this.

With this theory, I can't think why shunting would want to be delayed. For the most part, if there is a heat detector there should be a smoke detector in close proximity to provide safe recall. I believe waterflow switches are allowed to be used in lieu of heat detectors, but they absolutely cannot have any type of retard mechanism by code. Very uncommon since waterflows without retard mechanisms are just asking for trouble--I prefer heat detectors with a lower activation temp. than the adjacent sprinkler head as required.

Monitoring of the power to the shunt trip breaker coil to initiate a supervisory signal came about in NFPA72 1999. This is for obvious reasons--if you don't monitor the power that controls the shunt coil you would never know that the shunt function had been disabled except during annual testing.

NFPA 101 has the ASME 17.1 excerpts regarding elevator operation and interface.
NFPA 72 also has some good information in Supplement 2 at the back of the book.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
With this theory, I can't think why shunting would want to be delayed. For the most part, if there is a heat detector there should be a smoke detector in close proximity to provide safe recall. I believe waterflow switches are allowed to be used in lieu of heat detectors, but they absolutely cannot have any type of retard mechanism by code. Very uncommon since waterflows without retard mechanisms are just asking for trouble--I prefer heat detectors with a lower activation temp. than the adjacent sprinkler head as required.

Correct the flow switch cannot even have time delay capability. 2007 72.6.16.4.3
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
My elevator does not have a flashing hat, just a solid hat. Do you have a reference requiring a flashing hat?

There was some confusion about this come inspection time, but it passed. :confused:
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
My elevator does not have a flashing hat, just a solid hat. Do you have a reference requiring a flashing hat?

There was some confusion about this come inspection time, but it passed. :confused:

I know this isn't the answer, but the hat needs to flash when a smoke in the shaft or machine room is in alarm. That's critical so firefighters will know the shaft/machine room may be in danger of fire damage.

I can personally attest, that it has provided adequate warning of an imminent shut down of an elevator for firefighters, allowing time to exit the car on a floor, instead of mid floor, prior to the shunt engaging.
 

MichaelGP3

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco bay area
Occupation
Fire Alarm Technician
How do you achieve the flashing?

This is the elevator contractor's responsibility, via the elevator car controller.

In your case, how many different signals are being sent from the fire alarm system (via dry contact outputs, including those on detector relay bases) to the elevator controller?
 
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