They left out the lighting outlet box

[satcom]

I don't like the idea of installing an open back fixture on combustible material even if there is a proper J box behind it. It still allows the wiring in proximity to the combustible material. I bet if you reasearch hard enough you may find that these fixtures are to be installed on non combustible wall or ceiling finishes

You got it, Non combustible does not include wood
Using the pendent with a pancake box for wiring space is fine provided the mounting area is non combustible
When you see them on wood it is usually handy dandy electric

The k&T wiring connections were on plaster and they made a hole and wired in the canopy area
I hope reads ok I am on the move typing on the phone

 

[George Stolz]

You boys are going to have to prove that to me. I've never seen such instructions on a light.

 

[growler]

When you see them on wood it is usually handy dandy electric

Darn I wish I had thought of useing that name, it's very catchy and easy to remember and almost as good as Mr. Sparky.

I can see it now " Handy Dandy Electric, America's second choice, we are almost on time."

 

[GUNNING]

nope. 410.16 (A) and 410.16(B)

nope. 410.16 (A) and 410.16(B)

Some fixtures are listed to have junctions inside and act as junction boxes and some are not (normally florescents). Some are listed to be weather proof and used outside, some are not. Are you giving them a price to install fixtures on there electrical or are you giving them a complete price to install fixtures on a suitable box and circuit.
Remember you are an electrical contractor and don't make up the rules here, just follow them. It's there electrical system.
I would tell them the sites are not suitable for the type of fixture they chose and need an electrical box because all junctions, splices, or taps shall be in an electrical junction box or fixture suitably listed.

Is the circuit GFCI protected? Is there a box? Yea you can replace the fixture but it will be extra to place them on boxes and more to make the circuit GFCI protected, as required.

The cost of the estimate is turning into a free evaluation of there electrical system.

Just because they want lights doesn't mean you have to loose your license to hang em.
Whoever put them up before put the chandeliers up wrong. For a price you can fix that by ... thats what they need (want) to know.

 

[satcom]

You boys are going to have to prove that to me. I've never seen such instructions on a light.

George we don't have to prove anything we just need to install them in a safe manner, but you do have a point manufactures instructions are not always supplied with fixtures they must assume a proper box will always be there waiting for the fixture
Funny i was just having a flash back to a job many years ago I came in to inspect some of the work progress and noticed a pile of foil backed insulation plugs all over the floor, and when i asked the guy installing the fixtures what they were doing on the floor he replied you think I am a dummy and would put packing material in the canopy.

 

[mkgrady]

Are you giving them a price to install fixtures on there electrical or are you giving them a complete price to install fixtures on a suitable box and circuit.
I would tell them the sites are not suitable for the type of fixture they chose and need an electrical box because all junctions, splices, or taps shall be in an electrical junction box or fixture suitably listed.

Is the circuit GFCI protected? Is there a box? Yea you can replace the fixture but it will be extra to place them on boxes and more to make the circuit GFCI protected, as required.

I'm giving them a price to remove pendent and sconce type outdoor (on porches) fixtures and replace them with similar but new fixtures. All the fixtures are mounted on a wood ceiling or wall.

The sites are suitable for only the type of lights they have except there are no boxes. I won't put up the new fixtures unless they pay me to also add a box.

The circuits are not gfi protected and I don't belive they need to be.

 

[kwired]

You got it, Non combustible does not include wood
Using the pendent with a pancake box for wiring space is fine provided the mounting area is non combustible
When you see them on wood it is usually handy dandy electric

The k&T wiring connections were on plaster and they made a hole and wired in the canopy area
I hope reads ok I am on the move typing on the phone

Please tell us you were not driving. We are not that important to talk to while doing that. I know of a couple people that were killed doing that, it is not worth it. Forget 70E this is more likely to kill you.

 

[mkgrady]

Please tell us you were not driving. We are not that important to talk to while doing that. I know of a couple people that were killed doing that, it is not worth it. Forget 70E this is more likely to kill you.

Is this lecture really a good idea. It just seems out of place to me. I'm not assuming Satcom was doing anything dangerous but don't you think he has the right if he so chooses?

 

[mkgrady]

You got it, Non combustible does not include wood
Using the pendent with a pancake box for wiring space is fine provided the mounting area is non combustible
When you see them on wood it is usually handy dandy electric

OK, but what code does it violate? I have never seen fixture instructions that prohibited the canopy from resting against wood. I'm not saying your position doesn't make sense. It does. How do you hang a sconce on a wooden wall and prevent the canopy from touching wood. Same question for a pendent fixture hanging from a box on a wooden ceiling.

 

[LarryFine]

I can't tell you how many lights I've seen attached directly to siding or walls.

You can tell us; we're electricians. :grin:

Don't start the fight, start it on the right note: "Here's what it will cost to do the job right."

And, if they ask how much to do it wrong, "You couldn't afford it!"

The k&T wiring connections were on plaster and they made a hole and wired in the canopy area

The first electric ceiling-hugging fixtures were wired for and made to mount in place of, and often onto the piping of existing gas lights.

I hope reads ok I am on the move typing on the phone

Egads, man! :roll:

 

[satcom]

OK, but what code does it violate? I have never seen fixture instructions that prohibited the canopy from resting against wood. I'm not saying your position doesn't make sense. It does. How do you hang a sconce on a wooden wall and prevent the canopy from touching wood. Same question for a pendent fixture hanging from a box on a wooden ceiling.

You install a box to mount the fixture the connection is in the box, what is not approved is making the connection in the canopy and attaching to a wood surface the issue is you need a box

 

[mkgrady]

You install a box to mount the fixture the connection is in the box, what is not approved is making the connection in the canopy and attaching to a wood surface the issue is you need a box

Oh OK, I agree with all that. I thought you meant a recessed box can not be installed in a wood surface with a fixture that has a canopy.

 

[George Stolz]

Oh OK, I agree with all that. I thought you meant a recessed box can not be installed in a wood surface with a fixture that has a canopy.

That's the same thing I saw - it threw me for a minute.

 

[hurk27]

I guess this has a pro and con kind of question to it:

The pro:
Is that the NEC requires a box period! UL requires the fixture to be connected to a box period! to do other wise you are setting yourself and your company up for a liability issue that can bite you in the butt if anything ever goes wrong, I simply tell a owner that if I'm to do the work because of this liability that may befall on me and my company, it must be done by the book.

The con:
How many large canopy fixtures still leave the building finnish exposed to the wiring? quite a few, many large inside and outside fixtures have canopies that are much larger then the box, and the statements saying that if a box is not used it will cause a fire, then cannot be used? because even small canopy fixtures mounted on a single gang device box will still leave the building surface exposed to the wiring in the canopy.

 

[kwired]

Is this lecture really a good idea. It just seems out of place to me. I'm not assuming Satcom was doing anything dangerous but don't you think he has the right if he so chooses?

It is out of place as far as the topic of the thread is concerned. I don't think this is a forbidden subject on this forum. Driving while doing such activities is dangerous, can be a workplace hazard and this qualifies it as a topic of conversation on this forum. The dangers are just as real as working in an energized panel. The difference is the energized panel is likely to only effect the person working in it should something go wrong or maybe others but they will know there is a hazard there. The distracted driver will suddenly create a hazard for others that have no idea what is going on.

I don't mean to hijack the thread but after knowing a couple people that were killed because of this I can't just sit here and say nothing when he makes the comment about hoping he did not mess up his post because he was on the move. I don't really want replies to this I just want people to think about it.

 

[satcom]

Yes I was on the move taking my walk in the park after my workout I had my phone with me and was sitting on a bench reading the posts and then started to walk as I was finishing the post
After I had the stroke it was hard trying to get my typing back on keys so o din,t want anyone to think I was having another stroke

 

[jmellc]

Sad thing about this and similar issues is that the customer, in general, is getting tighter than ever, or poorer & cost is the only consideration. The pressure is always increasing to do it cheap, not right. "Just get the lights on", "just fix it well enough to work", "can't you just tuck that into the wall and patch over it?" and on and on. I've had several people call lately, saying they needed to get some sloppy wiring fixed & done right. How quickly they revert to the former statements when I give them a price. But if I were to do as they now ask and a fire or accident happens later, I can already hear it. "Well, I didn't want you to do anything unsafe; I would have paid for a proper job if you'd warned me this could happen". How quickly the singer comes up with a new song.

If I had a steady stream of commercial work, I'd never touch another house again. You find junk in commercial buildings too, but not quite as often or as bad as in houses. I am constantly reminded that I have yet to see the worst in wiring. Sloppy wiring is a constantly evolving art, with new records being set by the hour. I'll see something next week that I say today no one would ever do.