- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
By the OP. Welder and Dryer-- I am assuming the welder is rated to have a 30 amp cir.
Clothes Dryer Circuit
- Thread starter donf
- Start date
- Status
By the OP. Welder and Dryer-- I am assuming the welder is rated to have a 30 amp cir.
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
IMO, yes... I have seen dryers that were hooked up in 2 locations with one circuit. It used to be in the basement but got moved upstairs. The ec just left the old one on the same circuit. This is compliant, IMO.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Please explain and tell me why 210.23 doesn't apply. Also 210.19(A)(4) states the same
stew
Senior Member
- Location
- federal way,washington
And I also do not agree. The dryer is not fastened in place. The circuit will not exceed the load which it supplies as long as both appliances are not used at the same time. I do not feel that there is any code violation here at all unless I am misreading something. A saw or similar circuit in a garage workshop with sveral tools plugged into it does not violate code either unless you overlaod the circuit by using too many tools at once. No different thatn plugging in 2 hair dyers and a curling iron on one bathroom circuit.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Many machines are not fastened in place. If I go to a laundromat and have 10 machines that plug in are you saying that it is code to have them on one circuit?
Also if you had two machines that were not fastened in place that were direct wired and were 23 amp each, would you put them on the same circuit? Now suppose they are plugged in?
I m not sure what fastened in lace has to do with it. Obviously I can put 2 outlets on the same circuit but if the equipment is there and the load is greater than the circuit then I don't see how 210.23 doesn't apply.
stew
Senior Member
- Location
- federal way,washington
where specifically does it say in 210.23 that this is not allowed. I think it says that it is allowed. under most circumstances . Just dont see whare it isnt allowed as long as only one load pf the circuit rating is used at once.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
What you propose is a code violation, but not one I'd lose any sleep over.
What you're trying to do is make a 240v, 30-A "convenience outlet." The convenience outlet is the only instance in the NEC where we do not size a circuit to a known load, setting the breaker as close as we can to the minimum necessary to make things work.
Alas, the 'convenience circuit' is defined as a 15 0r 20 amp, 120v circuit. Since your circuit does not fit this definition, you cannot apply convenience outlet rules.
FWIW, the idea of circumventing AFCI rules by simply using a 10-A breaker runs afoul of this same issue.
----------
Now ... for some general 'welder' comments:
I cannot stress enough that every welder is different, and you need to use ALL of the nameplate information to run a proper circuit. "Just give me 240 for the welder" just won't do. Welder circuits are sized using different rules than are circuits for clothes dryers. You're trying to put wheels on a submarine.
Do it right.
-----------
Issue #3: the "240 convenience outlet circuit" concept turns up again, like a bad penny. I've lost count of the homes I've seen with 4x2 fuseboxes- and that had the dryer, water heater, and kitchen range all cobbled onto the sole 240v circuit. Heck, some even had a 240v air conditioner added to the mix!
Quit adding patches to fixes to improvisations to bandages! At some point you need to recognize reality and admit that you've seriously outgrown the original electrical service. Bite the bullet, rip it out, do it right.
What you're trying to do is make a 240v, 30-A "convenience outlet." The convenience outlet is the only instance in the NEC where we do not size a circuit to a known load, setting the breaker as close as we can to the minimum necessary to make things work.
Alas, the 'convenience circuit' is defined as a 15 0r 20 amp, 120v circuit. Since your circuit does not fit this definition, you cannot apply convenience outlet rules.
FWIW, the idea of circumventing AFCI rules by simply using a 10-A breaker runs afoul of this same issue.
----------
Now ... for some general 'welder' comments:
I cannot stress enough that every welder is different, and you need to use ALL of the nameplate information to run a proper circuit. "Just give me 240 for the welder" just won't do. Welder circuits are sized using different rules than are circuits for clothes dryers. You're trying to put wheels on a submarine.
Do it right.
-----------
Issue #3: the "240 convenience outlet circuit" concept turns up again, like a bad penny. I've lost count of the homes I've seen with 4x2 fuseboxes- and that had the dryer, water heater, and kitchen range all cobbled onto the sole 240v circuit. Heck, some even had a 240v air conditioner added to the mix!
Quit adding patches to fixes to improvisations to bandages! At some point you need to recognize reality and admit that you've seriously outgrown the original electrical service. Bite the bullet, rip it out, do it right.
donf
Member
- Location
- Tidewater Virginia
Chiming back in
Chiming back in
FWIW, I do believe that 210.23 is the controlling gate here.
210.23 speaks directly to the load capacity of the entire BC.
Yes, I can put multiple recepts on this BC, but none of the combined loads can cause the BC to draw more than 30 Amps.
The mere fact that someone says, "I'll only use one at a time." is irrelevant. What's to stop the next home owner, that does not know of or care what the previous owner promised from using the recepts for concurrent loads?
That is always the risk and why the basis for the 80% rule.
Chiming back in
FWIW, I do believe that 210.23 is the controlling gate here.
210.23 speaks directly to the load capacity of the entire BC.
Yes, I can put multiple recepts on this BC, but none of the combined loads can cause the BC to draw more than 30 Amps.
The mere fact that someone says, "I'll only use one at a time." is irrelevant. What's to stop the next home owner, that does not know of or care what the previous owner promised from using the recepts for concurrent loads?
That is always the risk and why the basis for the 80% rule.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Actually when speaking of outlets not required by the NEC I think what the customer says is entirely relevant.
stew
Senior Member
- Location
- federal way,washington
many have said this a code violation but noone has quoted the specific code section that does not permit it. the semantics of calling it a "convenience outlet " dont fly. I am going to call it an extra 30 amp outlet attached to a 30 amp circuit that may or may not be used. It will be located in a convenient place tho. The poster that referred to a fuse service that had several loads connected to one circuit does specifically violate 210.23 A (2) but in my opinion the prior installation does not violate the code unless someone can show me a specific sentence that prohibits this. I have been in many industrial plants tha have multiple welder receptacles located along a wall so that machine can be moved and used in different areas. All were inspected locations and were deemed permissable.
Last edited:
stew
Senior Member
- Location
- federal way,washington
the poster that referred to multiple loads such as range and water heater does violate 213.23 A (2)specifically. Have seen a lot of industrial areas where there are several 100 or 60 amp arktite outlets in multiple configurations so that cart mounted welders can be moved around and these are inspected and approved installations.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Well, Stew, it's either a convenience outlet or it is not.
Can it be a convenience outlet? I think not - both because it does not fall within the voltage and current scope of the definition - and because we're dealing with known loads.
Remember, the whole idea of a residential 'convenience outlet,' and the circuit it's on, is that we're providing power for unknown loads at unknown locations. Here you not only know the locations of the equipment, you also know the loads. To pretend it's just an extra receptacle that may (or may not) be used is simply dishonest.
Just why else would the NEC discuss circuit loading, and treat different types of loads differently?
The industrial example you cite is one of a known load being used in multiple locations. It's not relevant. We're not rolling the dryer around; we're adding a welder to the dryer circuit.
I'll never understand why folks are so resistant to 'looking it up,' Chances are, your choices of breaker size and wire size are completely wrong; only the nameplate data can answer that. It's very possible for a welder circuit to have #12 wire on a 100 amp breaker- it all comes down to that 'service factor.'
Then again, the NEC is absolutely silent on the subject of honesty, so maybe you don't have a violation after all.
Can it be a convenience outlet? I think not - both because it does not fall within the voltage and current scope of the definition - and because we're dealing with known loads.
Remember, the whole idea of a residential 'convenience outlet,' and the circuit it's on, is that we're providing power for unknown loads at unknown locations. Here you not only know the locations of the equipment, you also know the loads. To pretend it's just an extra receptacle that may (or may not) be used is simply dishonest.
Just why else would the NEC discuss circuit loading, and treat different types of loads differently?
The industrial example you cite is one of a known load being used in multiple locations. It's not relevant. We're not rolling the dryer around; we're adding a welder to the dryer circuit.
I'll never understand why folks are so resistant to 'looking it up,' Chances are, your choices of breaker size and wire size are completely wrong; only the nameplate data can answer that. It's very possible for a welder circuit to have #12 wire on a 100 amp breaker- it all comes down to that 'service factor.'
Then again, the NEC is absolutely silent on the subject of honesty, so maybe you don't have a violation after all.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Where is the definition of "convenience outlet"?
And if there is one who says we have to call it that?
I would call this a 'General Purpose Branch Circuit' and that definition can be found in Article 100.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Where does the NEC talk about this 'rolling around' in 210.23?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Go back and read the posts-- I gave an article more than once. You may not agree with it but I did cite it.
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
I can't see that this is any different than installing any 30a BC with multiple 30a recepts on it IAW 210.21(B)(3). It IS a General Purpose Branch Circuit. Plug in dryers or welders or whatever you want as long as you load it within the constraints of 210.23(B)
- Location
- Massachusetts
Exactly my opinion.
- Status