Type USE-2 conductors

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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
It's not exactly an 'need', but THWN-2 has smaller conduit requirements and is cheaper. If the price difference is 20cents per foot then a $16 junction box for two PV strings pays for itself in 20 feet.
In lieu of the junction box, don't forget that if he wants to run the DC from the array to inverter in basement via interior routing, there has to be a disconnect before the run enters the building.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
In lieu of the junction box, don't forget that if he wants to run the DC from the array to inverter in basement via interior routing, there has to be a disconnect before the run enters the building.

Not if it is run in metal. (Unless that has changed in the 2011)
 

c_picard

Senior Member
Location
USA
In this case it will be in EMT throught the sill to the inverter located in the basement.

I personally like to see exterior DC disco's, but I typically have to install as designed(as long as it is code compliant of course).

We're thinking of having AFC make us some four conductor w/ground Type MC specially colored for the DC side, we do mostly 5kw resi systems, typically 2 strings off the roof. We have to do the math, not sure how long the 5000' minimum order will last us. (2011 NEC is adopted in Mass, allows MC)
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
No, you cannot run 'straight USE' inside for any application, no way no how. You can run USE 'in the array' the same as UF would be run.

If you want to want your PV circuits to run all the way from the array to somewhere indoors without a splice you must use dual rated USE / RHW.



USE can be had as a cable assembly or as individual conductors, either way it can only enter the building if it has a RHW or other 'indoor' conductor listing.

"And your little dog too":lol:
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
If this is the case, I think it should be at least mentioned in class.

I am forwarding this to my instructor for him to lose sleep over. (He is also an installer)

:happyyes:

Why? Which wire you can use in which situations is a first year apprentice question. Presumably the PV folks in your class are at least first year apprentices.

Or put another way, this is an ELECTRICIAN question, not a SOLAR INSTALLER question.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Why? Which wire you can use in which situations is a first year apprentice question. Presumably the PV folks in your class are at least first year apprentices.

Or put another way, this is an ELECTRICIAN question, not a SOLAR INSTALLER question.

Yet we have experienced electricians that do not agree as to what is acceptable for this installation.

If the solar installer also connects to the premesis wiring he is also an electrician, at least to some degree.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Why? Which wire you can use in which situations is a first year apprentice question. Presumably the PV folks in your class are at least first year apprentices.

Or put another way, this is an ELECTRICIAN question, not a SOLAR INSTALLER question.

Actually, I am the only one in my class, instructor included, that has been through the apprenticeship. As such, I have caught and corrected many errors. The class I am in is the very first of it's kind for this college. I purposely sought to be in the first class as I knew I would get to be part of it's evolution. The instructor and I spend a great deal of time both in person and via e-mail about the interpretation and proper application of the NEC.

Our text if full of omissions and ripe with errors. One illustration is of a gas turbine power plant and it has the generator in the exhaust of the jet engine. I know from actually being part of the construction of a jet turbine plant that the generator is on the intake side of the engine and takes advantage of the intake air to cool the generator. (Duh...) Otherwise, it would have to be cooled using liquid hydrogen.

The text never mentions the small conductor limitation and lists #10 as good for 40 amps. They also list ampacities for 16 and 18 AWG and fail to mention 310.5's restriction to a #14 minimum, or 110.14's temperature rating limitation. Due to the omission of 110.14, ALL the example calculations are done using 90C as all the conductors in the examples are 90C rated.

Our test tells us that the higher the temperature of a battery, the better as they use T vs. output curves and do not so much as mention the ill effects of high temperature on storage batteries. I forwarded some charts that include the life expectancy deterioration curves along with output. At 140F or so, the output increases 20 percent but the life decreases by 80 percent. The optimal temp for a storage battery is 77F, not as hot as we can keep them. That info was added to the power point stuff.

The instructor is also changing the power point examples to account for 110.14. 110.14 is a nasty little critter. Read the entire thing and tell me if your head doesn't spin. Not only is (C)(1) cryptic as it discusses 'termination provisions' but does not define them, if we call a breaker a device we now have a very low temp to compensate for. In the case of a Homeline 20A, it's terminal is rated for 60 or 75C, but 40C is molded into the case. Does that mean we have to derate down to 40C?

The instructor is a great guy and is very appreciative of my help and interest. I had him and his family out to a large amateur radio event this weekend. They got to chow down and get a tour of our emergency communication capabilities. He is an electrical engineer and actually builds stuff with his own hands. A rare bird indeed. Some of our instruction is based upon installations he did himself. We planned on bringing three of the school's 225 watt panels out to the event (we would have got extra points for using solar power), but at the last minute the college bean counter said no. Once the instructor saw that the event was being coordinated by a cop and we had the county's quarter million dollar mobile command center there, he told me that next year we would have our panels. I offered to have them picked up in a police cruiser, if needed.

So, if you were under the impression that the students and instructor have at least a first year level of NEC instruction, you would be incorrect.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, BTW. Even though we may not agree on everything (like negative PF) you bring to the table real world scenarios that most of us would never have insight to.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Yet we have experienced electricians that do not agree as to what is acceptable for this installation.

If the solar installer also connects to the premesis wiring he is also an electrician, at least to some degree.

In Michigan, anything covered by Article 690 must be performed by a licensed electrician. Enforcement has been spotty as the solar installers know more about the systems than the electricians. At present, enforcement is limited to actual premises wiring and they are allowing installers without licenses to do certain portions of the installation, usually that which is manufacturer specific. For example, panels are mounted and connected together and inverters are installed by solar installers and the discos, conduit and wire is installed by licensed electricians.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The instructor is also changing the power point examples to account for 110.14. 110.14 is a nasty little critter. Read the entire thing and tell me if your head doesn't spin. Not only is (C)(1) cryptic as it discusses 'termination provisions' but does not define them, if we call a breaker a device we now have a very low temp to compensate for. In the case of a Homeline 20A, it's terminal is rated for 60 or 75C, but 40C is molded into the case. Does that mean we have to derate down to 40C?

40C marked on breaker is rated temperature at which breaker should carry its rated amperage, it is not a termination rating. If ambient temperature is higher than 40C the breaker may trip at less than its rating.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I googled and come up with this link and a few others that I think have no idea what they are talking about. Funny how they tell you you need to size conductors for 40C yet they don't tell you where to find 40C ampacity values. Some links to threads on this forum but I did not look through them.
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
Our text if full of omissions and ripe with errors. One illustration is of a gas turbine power plant and it has the generator in the exhaust of the jet engine. I know from actually being part of the construction of a jet turbine plant that the generator is on the intake side of the engine and takes advantage of the intake air to cool the generator. (Duh...) Otherwise, it would have to be cooled using liquid hydrogen.
When it can be on a shaft with either the compressor or driven wheels, you're probalby correct. The ones I worked with as a Jr Engineer in the mid 70's did not have that luxury (effectively 707 engines) using a "free turbine" which ran the generator. Gas exhausted at 90 degrees and went into a heat recovery boiler which ran an OLD (1920's) steam turbine. These gas generators ran in the 7000-9000 rpm. The free turbine ran at 3600 rpm.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
When it can be on a shaft with either the compressor or driven wheels, you're probalby correct. The ones I worked with as a Jr Engineer in the mid 70's did not have that luxury (effectively 707 engines) using a "free turbine" which ran the generator. Gas exhausted at 90 degrees and went into a heat recovery boiler which ran an OLD (1920's) steam turbine. These gas generators ran in the 7000-9000 rpm. The free turbine ran at 3600 rpm.

If you want to see the plant I was working on, Google 'Zeeland Gas Turbine'. The engines there are land based turbine engines that are over 12 feet in diameter.

I used to work in a jet engine research lab. We designed replacement hot stage blades and some of them went into 707 engines. We had to design them to operate at nearly 3000 degrees F. They are actually hollow and cooler air from the intake side blows through them to keep them cool.

I don't see how gas can drop from 2500 F in the hot stage to 90 C in the exhaust. Typically, a jet turbine without intake heating has an exhaust temp of around 1200 degrees F.

I think your 90 degrees is far shy of actual temp. First, how can 90 degree exhaust make steam? Zeeland has a HRSG (Heat Recovery Steam Generator) and the exhaust is blown directly into boilers and the steam (1000 degrees F at 1000 psi) is moved via steam pipes to the generator which is an a separate building. If you see a pic of the plant, the boilers are the tall stacks at the west end of the engines. The intake is on the east side and looks like a big square. The generators are the black things at the base of the intakes. (The pics are far from great).

The turbine and the generators ran at a regulated 3600 rpm. I have never heard of a 60 hz generator run anywhere near 9000 rpm. 9 grand non stop has got to be hard on a generator. Even the steam turbines I have worked around run at 3600 rpm and are directly connected to the generators (BC Cobb, Muskegon and JH Campbell in Port Sheldon, MI).

If there are generators placed at the exhaust end of a jet engine, I would love a picture of one to chuckle about. Putting a genny in front of a huge blow torch is just plain stupidity.
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
Mark, 90 degree angle ... yeah, the 1200 sounds reasonable; that went to the heat recovery boiler(s?). This was at a Duke Power Buck Steam Station in Spencer NC ... then 5 coal boilers, 4 turbine generators (40, 80, 125, 125 MW) and a small "combustion turbine" peaking group (then 6 gas generators, 3 generators) with wast head boiler(s?) connected to one of the old (late 1920's) (25 MW IIRC) TG units. As best I can tell from Google Maps, that configuration still exists. See 35.712738,-80.373794 for the CT control building. We had 3,000,000 gallons of #2 to burn then.

Hot gas out of Gas Generator to inline "Free Turbine" coupled to generator

GG runs like any other 707 engine ... indeed, we bought a couple of surplus airplane engines. We had one maintenance guy who was either ex-military or ex-aviation who supervised our HSIs. These ran about 4-5 hours a day in the winter for peak loads, longer in the summer.
 
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