GFCI breaker issues.

[180q]

I'm troubleshooting a pool circuit that has been working for 11yrs. Suddenly the gfci breaker is tripping. I'm not exactly sure what is going on. Here is the scenario: Main panel, 20a gfci breaker, twist lock outlet & switch out at pool. Removing wire from both ends and checking for continuity shows no issues. Putting wire on a normal breaker reads through...no issues and 120 at pool- hot/neut and hot/ground. The problem arises when I touch the neutral whip off of the breaker to the neutral bar and it trips instantly. This is with the old breaker and a new breaker. Any ideas as to what else to check and or do would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Chad

 

[kwired]

I'm troubleshooting a pool circuit that has been working for 11yrs. Suddenly the gfci breaker is tripping. I'm not exactly sure what is going on. Here is the scenario: Main panel, 20a gfci breaker, twist lock outlet & switch out at pool. Removing wire from both ends and checking for continuity shows no issues. Putting wire on a normal breaker reads through...no issues and 120 at pool- hot/neut and hot/ground. The problem arises when I touch the neutral whip off of the breaker to the neutral bar and it trips instantly. This is with the old breaker and a new breaker. Any ideas as to what else to check and or do would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Chad

You have a fault to ground somewhere in the connected equipment and the breaker is doing exactly what it is supposed to do in this situation.

Test with ohmmeter (megohmeter would be better if you have one). Test both hot to ground and neutral to ground. Regular ohmmeter should read infinity, if not find the source of the continuity, that is where the fault is.

 

[180q]

You're thinking there is a break in the UF somewhere that isn't creating a short, but faulting to ground? -Chad

 

[Little Bill]

Sounds like it could be a pump motor going/gone bad. Try disconnecting the pump and energizing the circuit. If it holds that means something is wrong in the pump wiring or housing.

 

[180q]

The pool end of the wire was completely disconnected and the issue continued. -Chad

 

[mccayry]

I just had the same problem. The panel located at the pump was put together incorrectly causing water to enter the gfi breaker causing it to trip. I have also found pumps that had moisture build up causing the breaker to trip. Gfi's can be a real nusiance in exterior settings.

 

[mccayry]

Is the pump covered or in the open where it can be rained on?

 

[180q]

The main panel with breaker is located in the basement. A 12/2 UF wire is run out to the switch and receptacle located at the pump. Switch, receptacle and pump are exposed to the elements. This is an above ground pool. -Chad

 

[kwired]

The pool end of the wire was completely disconnected and the issue continued. -Chad

Then the remaining portion of the circuit that was still connected contains the problem. Good place to use a megohmeter. Try breaker with no load connected as well as with an alternate load that you know is in good working condition, this will likely tell you if there is a problem with the breaker.

 

[180q]

I tried a new breaker, so the breaker itself is not the issue. There is no remaining portion of the circuit connected and no load connected. Switch and receptacle have been removed. It's just a bare wire end at the pool. This bare end of the wire reads fine on a normal breaker. This bare wire shows no continuity between wires. The only logical thing is that there is a break in the insulation somewhere in the ground. I find that hard to believe since it appears to be a clear run out to the pump. (No trees or plantings and such) I guess I'll have to call someone in with the meter. -Chad

 

[hurk27]

It sounds like you have an issue with the neutral leaking to ground, only a high reading resistance tester will detect this in most cases, an Ideal Volt-Con will sound the audible continuity to about 600k ohms, but as suggested a megger would be the best tool for these kinds of problems.

But I don't think this is your only problem:

A 12/2 UF wire is run out to the switch and receptacle located at the pump

The above in red is a violation of 680.21(A)(1)

UF is not an allowed wiring method.:happysad:

 

[ptonsparky]

UF goes bad. I make a decent living, in part anyway, replacing or repairing it. Faulted cable + pool = :thumbsdown:

Your service call just turned into a nice little project. Fix it up nice, legal, and safe.

DO NOT move the GFCI protecion to the pool area receptacle. You already have a dangerous situation.

 

[Little Bill]

It sounds like you have an issue with the neutral leaking to ground, only a high reading resistance tester will detect this in most cases, an Ideal Volt-Con will sound the audible continuity to about 600k ohms, but as suggested a megger would be the best tool for these kinds of problems.

But I don't think this is your only problem:

The above in red is a violation of 680.21(A)(1)

UF is not an allowed wiring method.:happysad:

Not disagreeing with you on the UF cable but help me understand why it is a violation. Is it because the egc is not insulated. I've read Article 340 and 680, including 680.21(A)(1) several times and all I can find is the insulated egc requirement. Is that it, or that plus something else I'm not seeing?

Thanks

 

[hurk27]

Not disagreeing with you on the UF cable but help me understand why it is a violation. Is it because the egc is not insulated. I've read Article 340 and 680, including 680.21(A)(1) several times and all I can find is the insulated egc requirement. Is that it, or that plus something else I'm not seeing?

Thanks

Because it says:

The branch circuits for pool-associated motors
shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate
metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, reinforced
thermosetting resin conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the
location.

UF is not in that list, 680.21(A)(4) allows a cable type wiring method but only interior of dwelling
units, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated
with a dwelling unit.

As to why, I would think is because of the nature of UF being damaged and causing a shock hazard, other then that I would have to go back and read the ROP's when the requirement was put in the NEC but it's been in there a long time.

 

[Little Bill]

Because it says:



UF is not in that list, 680.21(A)(4) allows a cable type wiring method but only interior of dwelling
units, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated
with a dwelling unit.

As to why, I would think is because of the nature of UF being damaged and causing a shock hazard, other then that I would have to go back and read the ROP's when the requirement was put in the NEC but it's been in there a long time.

Playing the "devil's advocate" here, what if the UF cable was installed in one of the raceways. The only thing I can see then is back to it not having an insulated egc. One would think the NEC would list either in 340 or somewhere in 680 that the UF is not permitted.

 

[ptonsparky]

What is the chance that you have a double insulated pool pump?

680.21(B)

 

[180q]

I brought someone in with a megohmeter. Within 20min. we had found the problem, dug it up and he was off. There was a cut in the insulation and a tiny ding in the hot conductor that was faulting to ground.

 

[Little Bill]

I brought someone in with a megohmeter. Within 20min. we had found the problem, dug it up and he was off. There was a cut in the insulation and a tiny ding in the hot conductor that was faulting to ground.

Glad you found the problem. What do you mean when you said "dug it up and he was off"? Did you run new wire or just repair what you had?

 

[kwired]

Playing the "devil's advocate" here, what if the UF cable was installed in one of the raceways. The only thing I can see then is back to it not having an insulated egc. One would think the NEC would list either in 340 or somewhere in 680 that the UF is not permitted.

Why would you want to pull UF through a raceway in the first place? Don't know how many times I have seen that. It pulls harder and cost more than using THWN.

 

[Little Bill]

Why would you want to pull UF through a raceway in the first place? Don't know how many times I have seen that. It pulls harder and cost more than using THWN.

I wouldn't want to, I have, and as you said very hard pull. I only pulled it then because that was what was available in a pinch. But the Op didn't say if his UF was in conduit or not, I assumed it was not. I was only pointing out that by definition of allowed wiring methods, it doesn't seem to prohibit the UF if it is installed in a raceway. I suppose my main point was why the NEC is so vague on certain things in their listings of what is and is not permitted. It's like, go on a scavenger hunt and read between the lines.