AFCI breakers in panel change and move 5 feet

[Sierrasparky]

We are under the 2008 nec.
Is it necessary to add AFCI when you move a panel and install a new one in a single family res?

 

[John120/240]

The AHJ here would not require AFCI in this situation. Shared neutrals can

cause major headaches with ACFI.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

NC looks at it this way. If you add an outlet to the circuit then it needs to be afci. Every area is different. We have one jurisdiction that will allow you to add a receptacle off an old circuit as long as it stays within the room it is taken from. Not sure how that came to be but that is what they do. IMO, the 2011 is just clarifying what the intent was in 2008.

 

[Ponchik]

I believe it depends how the local AHJ interprets the code.
So far i haven't had any inspector require AFCI on panel upgrades. From a business end, I think t is a great recommendation to the customer.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I believe it depends how the local AHJ interprets the code.
So far i haven't had any inspector require AFCI on panel upgrades. From a business end, I think t is a great recommendation to the customer.

My understanding it is more than a panel upgrade. The OP is moving the location of the panel and thus needs to extend the circuit. I can see many jurisdictions requiring afci. I am sure that many would not require it either.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Hey so how does the 2011 handle it?

 

[Ponchik]

Hey so how does the 2011 handle it?

In 2011 it clearly states that if you modify the circuit then AFCI is required. If i was an inspector interpreting the 210.12 of NEC 2011 I would require AFCI on panel upgrade.

(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling
Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the
branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of
the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the
first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

In 2011 it clearly states that if you modify the circuit then AFCI is required. If i was an inspector interpreting the 210.12 of NEC 2011 I would require AFCI on panel upgrade.

(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications ? Dwelling
Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the
branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of
the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the
first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit

It is a great code addition. Gotta boost AFCI sales

 

[rcarroll]

In 2011 it clearly states that if you modify the circuit then AFCI is required. If i was an inspector interpreting the 210.12 of NEC 2011 I would require AFCI on panel upgrade.

(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications ? Dwelling
Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the
branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of
the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the
first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit

If a panel is changed out only, are the branch circuits modified, replaced, or extended? Not in my opinion. The panel is replaced, the branch circuits stay the same. I suppose it could be argued that if you had to splice a length of conductor in the panel to reach the breaker, the ckt. would be modified or extended. But, I believe that's a stretch. I would not require AFCI protection on a panel change, unless you fine people convince me it's required.

 

[construct]

In my jurisdiction, we are 2005 NEC. The only amendment we made was to require the first means of disconnect to be on the outside of the building. Since there is nothing to back us up for branch circuit modifications or extensions, we only require AFCI protection for new branch circuit installs only if it is in dwelling unit bedrooms. Personally, I don't agree with this where you have added a 3rd bedroom to an existing 2 bedroom single family dwelling. Why leave the existing 2 bedrooms unprotected?

Maybe the model codes (ICC) will address this in the future as the IRC already requires smoke alarms to be installed as for new construction if any work requiring a permit is to be done on an existing One or Two Family Dwelling unit. Just my opinion.

 

[iwire]

If a panel is changed out only, are the branch circuits modified, replaced, or extended? Not in my opinion. The panel is replaced, the branch circuits stay the same. I suppose it could be argued that if you had to splice a length of conductor in the panel to reach the breaker, the ckt. would be modified or extended. But, I believe that's a stretch. I would not require AFCI protection on a panel change, unless you fine people convince me it's required.

In the OPs case the panel is moving 5', I don't think there is any question AFCI protection would now be required.

 

[stew]

I for one am glad I wire is not my inspector. The only modification made is short jumpers and feeder jumpers. no modifications have been made to the circuits within the rooms which is as far as I am concerned the main point of emphasis. If modifcations or extensions are made withint the room where afcis are required the I agree an afci is needed. otherwise no. And again glad I wire doesnt inspect in Puget Sound area! lol

 

[Sierrasparky]

Only moving by 5 feet is still a modification. Although we are not on the 2011 code yet!

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

In the OPs case the panel is moving 5', I don't think there is any question AFCI protection would now be required.

Agreed.

I for one am glad I wire is not my inspector.

DEFINITELY agreed!

I think the main problem I can think of is MWBC in existing dwellings. Are there 2-pole AFCIs now that make this possible?

 

[stew]

As far as I am concerned when the code section talks about extensions it is talking about circuit extensions within the spaces that require afcis and not a simple wiring extension next to the panel Seriously,we havent changed anything within the space that an afci is designed to protect.

 

[wirenut3]

As far as I am concerned when the code section talks about extensions it is talking about circuit extensions within the spaces that require afcis and not a simple wiring extension next to the panel Seriously,we havent changed anything within the space that an afci is designed to protect.

I totally agree with that logic. No one has convinced me AFCI's are anything but trouble anyhow. How many of you guys have purchased them and installed them in your own homes- just to increase the safety of your own electrical system? I haven't, nor do I intend to anytime soon!

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

As far as I am concerned when the code section talks about extensions it is talking about circuit extensions within the spaces that require afcis and not a simple wiring extension next to the panel Seriously,we havent changed anything within the space that an afci is designed to protect.

the problem is that definition of an circuit extension is not in the NEC, nor is it really intuitive. Surely the AFCI is designed to protect that 5 foot extension along with the rest of the circuit.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

I totally agree with that logic. No one has convinced me AFCI's are anything but trouble anyhow. How many of you guys have purchased them and installed them in your own homes- just to increase the safety of your own electrical system? I haven't, nor do I intend to anytime soon!

I have installed many.... but my home has zero of them. :ashamed1:
Anyway your opinion and my agreement doesn't change the code wording.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The new 2011 code states modifications. I my world that means if you touch it move it you need to comply. However Ca is not on the 2011

 

[stew]

This in my opinion is verbage that is going to allow inspectors to force people to update homes that are and were in perfect code compliance. This is a very intrusive thing for any inspector to force on a homeowner when the intent of afcis is to specfically protect those circuits within the rooms that they reside and not the panel. A 5 ft jumper does not change the condition within those rooms and in itself should pose no additional hazard than that which was present before this move occured. Ridiculous requirement in my way of looking at it.