400 amp service

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Ditto here. IMHO and of those of local inspectors the rule does not make sense. You will hear people on this forum regurgitate the phrase diversity of loads but the truth is there are situations where it just does not make any sense.
So if the inspectors allow it I say save your money and do it.

I pretty much agree it does not make sense, but it is what it is. They just recently changed it to make it clear.

That said, IMO that whole section should be done away with and the load calculations adjusted.

That way we would not start out with an overblown load calculation only to overrate the conductors to compensate. That makes no sense.
 
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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
So all of this 320/400 stuff aside. Is it permitted to supply the 2-200 amp panels with #2/0's to each panel?
 

stew

Senior Member
I wish I had a recording device so I could hang it on a dozen or so large houses with a 320 and see what the peak demand actually is. My guess is that if it were higher than about 150 I would be startled.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
I wish I had a recording device so I could hang it on a dozen or so large houses with a 320 and see what the peak demand actually is. My guess is that if it were higher than about 150 I would be startled.

Look at the new smart meters on most of these houses. Many will give max kW readings...
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I am not following you.

If you have more than 320 amps continuous calculated load you cannot use a standard 400 amp breaker or panel either.

The 320 meter socket is a perfect match with a standard 400 amp panel or a pair of standard 200 amp panels. If you are overloading the 320 you are also overloading the breaker(s) unless they happen to be 100% rated breakers.

An overloaded meter will continue to carry the overload until something fails.

An overloaded overcurrent device by design is supposed to open the circuit.

I wish I had a recording device so I could hang it on a dozen or so large houses with a 320 and see what the peak demand actually is. My guess is that if it were higher than about 150 I would be startled.

I wouldn't say peak is never above 150. Average peak of 150 is very likley in most cases. May just be where I am at. Around here there is a lot of electric heating. In winter months those services do see some significant loading at times.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
An overloaded meter will continue to carry the overload until something fails.

An overloaded overcurrent device by design is supposed to open the circuit.

I think you are still missing the point here.

A typical 320 meter socket has the exact same capacity as a typical 400 amp breaker.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I think you are still missing the point here.

A typical 320 meter socket has the exact same capacity as a typical 400 amp breaker.

I am aware of that. It was mentioned earlier that the service in discussion was a 320 amp service if the meter socket was a 320 amp.

I have the opinion that the max current allowed by the overcurrent devices bears more weight on so called 'size of service' than a meter socket. With some sections of code that allow more overcurrent protection than conductor ampacity the real determination of service size is calculated load. You can possibly have a service that consists of 4 - 200 amp disconnecting means and supply them through 400 amps of service conductors and have a 320 amp meter socket in line with them. What size service is this 800, 400, 320? It can draw 800 without tripping any of the mains.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Perhaps I am in need of further explanation and education here. As a newby here, I have taken some time to read some posts and am familiar with the expertise of some of the senior members and moderators, and respect the opinions of them.

However, in the case of the 320/400 amp meter socket enclosures, I thought I had it understood, until this thread progressed.

According to 230.66, individual meter socket enclosures aren't considered service equipment, and aren't even required to be listed (nor are meters :) ).

I was under the impression that the smallest device determined service size. When a device is rated at 320 amps continious duty, where does the extra 25% come from? Isn't that like a 15 amp rated receptacle being able to legally carry 18.75 amps continiously?

I understand the 125% for continious loads for conductors, but there you calculate that a device requires "X" amount of current, then add 25%. That figure is it's continious rating, correct?

How can you take a device that has a 100%, or continious rating, and add another 25% to it?

I have seen the 320 amp meter socket enclosures supplying 2-150 amp panels, and some supplying 2-200 amp panels. I was under the impression that the AHJ was lax.

Could someone quote some code articles to set me straight?

It just seems odd to say a 320 amp continious rated device is rated for 400 amps continious duty is going the wrong way with the 125%. Why not just give the meter socket enclosure a 400 amp rating to start with? What about the 400 amp rated meter socket enclosures, are they to be, not derated, but rather increased 125% also?
 

tkb

Senior Member
Location
MA
400 is 125% of 320
320 is 80% of 400

The meter sockets ARE rated for 400 amps but only 320 amps continuous.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
400 is 125% of 320
320 is 80% of 400

The meter sockets ARE rated for 400 amps but only 320 amps continuous.

so a 15 amp receptacle is rated for 18.75 amps, but only 15 amps continuous?
 
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