Ceiling fan box

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alaskan JW

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Location
Anchorage,Ak
Hello all! My foreman is using a 4 sq box, screwed to the bottom of a beam to support a ceiling fan. After reading the code book seems to that boxes have to be listed for the purpose if the box is the sole support of the fan. Am I correct? We need to get a different box? Thanks for any help.
 

infinity

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Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
You said sole support, if you can support to the fan independently you can use a regular box.
 

alaskan JW

Member
Location
Anchorage,Ak
I am reading 314.27(d).

It is a small .5a fan from home depot. It is being mounted to the bottom of a beam in a gym. Ceiling is open to structure. Bottom of fan will be about 10' AFF. I can't think of a way to support the fan independently of the box for this installation.

He is using the box as the sole support, replacing the #8 screws with l longer screws.
 
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John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
The box needs to be listed "Suitable for fan support" or some such verbiage.

Perhaps you can take some 1/16" aircraft cable, attach to the fan motor, route

the cable thru the downrod & canopy, then attach the cable to the structure.

Some of the higher end C-fans come equipped with such a cable.
 

infinity

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Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
He is using the box as the sole support, replacing the #8 screws with l longer screws.

Why use longer screws? Are they going to penetrate the wood above the box? If so, then the box is not being used as the sole support for the fan. If he just hangs the fan off of the two 8/32 screws then I agree with you that it's incorrect.
 

cowboyjwc

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Location
Simi Valley, CA
You could use some long wood screws and go all the way up into the wood, but the holes for the ring and the mounting holes in the box don't usually line up. They do make a pancake, fan rated, box if that's the issue.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Assuming the beam is wood I usually use 3" #8 wood screws thru the bracket and into the wood on the outside of the box.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
The "traditional" method was to use a 4-square screwed to a piece of lumber. Over the years, I spent many a hot day crawling attics and wrestling insulation in order to instal that piece of 2x between the rafters. I never recall there ever being any issues with such installs.

Yet, it seems this was not good enough for some. Or, perhaps, others were not so conscientious, and used other methods. In any event, the code was changed (1999?) to require the use of rated boxed for fan support.

Metal boxes might be rated- but, as UL points out, the mud rings have not been evaluated. There lies the weak spot. That is, "fan boxes" typically use #10 screws to support the fan, while the device screws typically used with round-opening mud rings are but #8. As best I can tell, no one has ever performed the UL tests on the smaller screws.

I should point out that this is one area where the USA differs with Canada, as Canada requires additional support as well.

Your boss may be technically "outdated," but he sounds like a conscientious guy. After all, he COULD be using a rated 'pancake' box, leaving you to wonder about conductor fill, there being nowhere for the screws to go, etc.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
You said sole support, if you can support to the fan independently you can use a regular box.

Here is an interesting point. In 2011 NEC if the box is installed with a 3 wire cable and the fan is not installed then it needs to be a fan rated box. At least that is the way I read the new part to 314.27(C)

Where spare, separately switched, ungrounded conductors are provided to a ceiling mounted outlet box, in a location acceptable for a ceiling-suspended (paddle) fan in single or multi-family dwellings, the outlet box or outlet box system shall be listed for sole support of a ceiling suspended (paddle) fan.
 

mccayry

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
I install fan rated boxes in every room where there is any possibility the HO will install a fan or heavy chandelier in the future. Inspector failed me once because I had a non fan rated box installed in a small bedroom with a single switch leg. I just made up my mind that I would be sure that didnt happen again. You cant always be there to challenge the inspector.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I did a service call for a person who said their fan was hanging by the wires. I wished I had taken a picture-- the fan was up for 3 years with a pop in rod box. It finally gave way. No- I did not install the pop in. :p
 

alaskan JW

Member
Location
Anchorage,Ak
Why use longer screws? Are they going to penetrate the wood above the box? If so, then the box is not being used as the sole support for the fan. If he just hangs the fan off of the two 8/32 screws then I agree with you that it's incorrect.

We are using a 4 sq box with no mud ring. He feels better using longer #8 screws instead on the screws that come with the box. The #8 are the sole support.

One more thing...We are running a 2" emt for a panel feeder and I suggested using a gutter mounted vertical instead of a mogul LB and they thought I was crazy. Anyone else use gutters instead of moguls? Gutters have to be cheaper and easier to install IMO.
 
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