Interesting homeowner cob-job

[goros]

So I was called to a customers house to inspect something they had done....very incorrectly.

They have a 100amp service with a 100amp meter socket (inside the house - i'd guess 60's or early 70's installation) and the husband ran #4 awg from the meter socket to the new 200amp CH main he mounted on the wall (a really nice 42s/42c panel).

He connected the 4 awg to the main lugs. obviously a no-no. CH doesn't make a replacement main breaker to bring him into code that fits that box (csr 25k main breaker 200amp). So my "easy fix" is out.

They want me to bring them into code without having to upgrade their service.

Assuming I'm willing to help (i owe him a favor), what would the safest method of correction be?
A 2pole 100amp breaker backfed into the panel and labeled as main?

Or a 100 amp fusable disconnect between the main breaker and the meter socket?

His panel is currently grounded correctly and has the right bonding and tests out to better-than-code resistance levels.

If I didn't owe him I wouldn't be looking at it at all, and I'd report him to RG&E.

Help and/or advice appreciated - they want future-prooofing to support 200amps in the future but don't have the budget for it currently.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Volta]

I'd think if the panel will accept a breaker retainer, that would certainly be the cheapest option, just a BR or CH 2100 and the hold-down kit.

If not, a disconnect will quadruple the labor, add a grounding conductor in the feeder, an egc bar, move or extend the GEC, etc.

Might not be that much more to upgrade at that point...

Welcome to the forum.

 

[infinity]

They have a 100amp service with a 100amp meter socket (inside the house - i'd guess 60's or early 70's installation) and the husband ran #4 awg from the meter socket to the new 200amp CH main he mounted on the wall (a really nice 42s/42c panel).

He connected the 4 awg to the main lugs. obviously a no-no. CH doesn't make a replacement main breaker to bring him into code that fits that box (csr 25k main breaker 200amp). So my "easy fix" is out.

So are the unprotected service entrance conductors run into the house?

 

[__dan]

Changing the main panel is pretty ambitious for a homeowner. If he does that, he's probably adding circuits and loads also, hanging ceiling fans, changing receptacles. When I was troubleshooting I would check a few things, get that vibe, and ask "what wiring did you do". The homeowner would point to something and I would go right to it, finding something, staples bang too tight cutting the RX.

If he's willing to violate code on the main panel wire size, that's not the only code violation in the house. Key fact is he bears liability up to the point where the next guy, you, touch it. Then it will be 'you worked on it', 'you checked it out'.

You're doing him a big favor just by looking, not touching, and giving him good advice. I would consider it very fair to charge your regular rate against whatever you owe him, just for professional time and advice.

Look at the loads he's adding and guesstimate if he is on track to need the 200 amp service. Being very charitable about his good intentions, maybe he wants the 200 amp new service in the future and is doing the job in pieces. So helping him with that, maybe advise him to save his money and do the new full 200 amp within the next few years, as soon as he is able. The outside parts, meter socket, service cable, do not last forever. New parts outside, full code compliance, is good advice. I would think it may be a waste of money to put a lot of work into a new 100 amp main if the 200 amp service has the best value over the long term.

Make sure the GEC and bond to the water piping is good, check the meter socket and make sure it has a few years left in it. Having the too big main would not worry me too much as long as the liability attached firmly to the guy who did it, the homeowner, and he was advised what was necessary in the near future to move towards compliance. As long as he is not also running central air, hot tub, electric heat. Just regular light home loads would not worry me on #4. I would make sure he is worried about the #4.

To protect yourself, you will have to report in writing with a copy for you, what deficiencies were found and needed mitigation to come to code compliance. Do not say anything like 'I looked at X and it's OK'. Write him an estimate for the remainder of the new service and an invoice for looking at the stuff he wants to keep.

 

[stevenje]

If I didn't owe him I wouldn't be looking at it at all, and I'd report him to RG&E.

One solution to your question: Your price to do the job - what you owe him = the amount he pays you or you pay him.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Assuming I'm willing to help (i owe him a favor), what would the safest method of correction be?
A 2pole 100amp breaker backfed into the panel and labeled as main?

that's the cheapest path. 2 pole 70 amp breaker protecting the feeder
from overloading, and labeled as main. this is a temporary solution.
temporary is defined in the NEC as 90 days or less.

*for him to do personally. with his own hands*

i'd give him a written quote to bring the house up
to code, including a permit. and i wouldn't do it for
cheap. you don't know what he's done that he HASN'T
told you about.

and the "owing him a favor" would be repaid provided
he put the thing on a 70 amp breaker, and you SAW
it on a 70 amp breaker with your own eyes, you'd
leave him be until he made it right. for three months.

and not turn him into the AHJ.

after 90 days, i'd turn him into the AHJ if he
hadn't fixed it properly. it's not temporary anymore.

sound harsh? 16 years ago, i had a situation i warned
the landlord, the property owner, and the tenant about.

i didn't work on it. i wouldn't even touch it.
i didn't report it to the AHJ either.

a year after i was there, the property owner, making
"improvements" on his own, resulted in the loss of life.

guess what happened? he told the police (homicide)
investigating the incident that *his* electrician (me)
had checked it out and said it was safe.

guess who gave testimony three times in front of the
grand jury?

guess who got sued by the deceased persons family
for $2.5 million for something they had nothing to do with?

cover your butt here.... and welcome to the forum.


randy

 

[goros]

So are the unprotected service entrance conductors run into the house?

Yes, the 30+ year old (I'm assuming, cloth/asbestos wrapped service cable) comes in through the wall and down into the basement where the meter head is mounted, and then a 1-1/2" metal conduit runs the #4 awg he installed from there to the main lugs. I already told him he'd need to go to a #2 awg at least, and that the guy at Lowes steered him wrong. (Apparently the sign there says it's ok :roll: )

Changing the main panel is pretty ambitious for a homeowner. If he does that, he's probably adding circuits and loads also, hanging ceiling fans, changing receptacles. When I was troubleshooting I would check a few things, get that vibe, and ask "what wiring did you do". The homeowner would point to something and I would go right to it, finding something, staples bang too tight cutting the RX.

I already did, he added 4 or 5 new circuits, but they were wired correctly and didn't have any issues. He does have a mess of neutral issues in the original wiring in the house - apparently the previous owner tied neutrals between circuits in junction boxes all over the house. All the neutrals go back to the panel however, which is probably why this house didn't burn 30 years ago. I advised him to find them all and make sure that neutrals are only tied on the same circuit, not multiples - and to get separate junction boxes for each one.

I tested voltages on the 3 circuits that share neutrals and nothing came back at 240 or 0, so that's a plus.

If he's willing to violate code on the main panel wire size, that's not the only code violation in the house. Key fact is he bears liability up to the point where the next guy, you, touch it. Then it will be 'you worked on it', 'you checked it out'.

Yeah, trust me, I about choked him when I saw what I was getting in to. Everything on this is going to be in writing and signed off on, whether I do any work or not. I "advised him" to go back to Lowes and have a chat with the boss of whoever listened to him and gave him #4 for his main run. Idiot.

You're doing him a big favor just by looking, not touching, and giving him good advice. I would consider it very fair to charge your regular rate against whatever you owe him, just for professional time and advice.

Look at the loads he's adding and guesstimate if he is on track to need the 200 amp service. Being very charitable about his good intentions, maybe he wants the 200 amp new service in the future and is doing the job in pieces. So helping him with that, maybe advise him to save his money and do the new full 200 amp within the next few years, as soon as he is able. The outside parts, meter socket, service cable, do not last forever. New parts outside, full code compliance, is good advice. I would think it may be a waste of money to put a lot of work into a new 100 amp main if the 200 amp service has the best value over the long term.

He's set on 200amp service in the next couple years, but I don't think he's using even close to 100A after all is said and done. He's only got a 1600sqft ranch, forced air NG heat, electric 40gal tank (1 year old), a couple freezers and typical appliance demands. All the lighting has already been converted to CFLs and he has 2 small ceiling fans. I'd be surprised if he's ever pulled over 80A through that system (lucky for him!)

Make sure the GEC and bond to the water piping is good, check the meter socket and make sure it has a few years left in it. Having the too big main would not worry me too much as long as the liability attached firmly to the guy who did it, the homeowner, and he was advised what was necessary in the near future to move towards compliance. As long as he is not also running central air, hot tub, electric heat. Just regular light home loads would not worry me on #4. I would make sure he is worried about the #4.

I'm wondering if I should just advise him to feed that #4 to a 100amp breaker. I'm not sure a #2 would fit the connection, I've never tried to cob something like that before and wouldn't be comfortable doing it. Would you guys use a 100amp or an 80 or 70 amp if he wants to keep the #4? I want to give him good advice, and he did do decent work on what he put in already - except for the most important part of the job, that is. :happysad:

I'm thinking steering him towards replacing the #4 to a #2 (his own deal! I'm not touching it!) and putting a 100A disconnect between the meter and the panel (but this would be 100% on him, I'm leaning more towards advising than actually working this one) and then he can connect to the main lugs.

At least that will keep RG&E from fining him too heavily when the time comes for them to inspect before the upgrade.

To protect yourself, you will have to report in writing with a copy for you, what deficiencies were found and needed mitigation to come to code compliance. Do not say anything like 'I looked at X and it's OK'. Write him an estimate for the remainder of the new service and an invoice for looking at the stuff he wants to keep.

Yeah, I already started that process.

 

[George Stolz]

I already told him he'd need to go to a #2 awg at least, and that the guy at Lowes steered him wrong. (Apparently the sign there says it's ok :roll: )



I "advised him" to go back to Lowes and have a chat with the boss of whoever listened to him and gave him #4 for his main run. Idiot.

I'm thinking steering him towards replacing the #4 to a #2 (his own deal! I'm not touching it!) and putting a 100A disconnect between the meter and the panel (but this would be 100% on him, I'm leaning more towards advising than actually working this one) and then he can connect to the main lugs.

Is it #4 CU or AL? If it's copper, it's fine.

 

[electricguy61]

Is it #4 CU or AL? If it's copper, it's fine.

That is, fine to feed 100amp main breaker, right George? Table 310.15(B)(6) 2008 NEC (My code cycle)

 

[growler]

I'm leaning more towards advising than actually working.

That the best idea. No reason to get in the middle of a job like this.

 

[GUNNING]

Do it right.

Get a load calculation together looking at the new appliances he has added since the house was built.
If the panel is back to back with the meter,
replace the wire from the meter socket to a new 100 amp cb with a retention kit.
Add an extra ground rod with a utility bus.

Piece of cake...

 

[goros]

Yeah it's #4 copper.

I'll tell him what he should do, cover my ass, and walk away.

Thanks guys

 

[George Stolz]

That is, fine to feed 100amp main breaker, right George? Table 310.15(B)(6) 2008 NEC (My code cycle)

Exactly. I figured with all the taunting and all, Murphy's Law would dictate that the OP was unaware of the allowance for dwelling unit service and feeder conductors.

 

[GUNNING]

I hate it when people start yellin lawyer lawyer.... they have no idea what they are talking about or what they are entitled to.

We aren't doctors and not lawyers neither are the home owners electricians. They can do anything to their house they want including paying someone to do it for them. As an electrician we have no obligation to do anything we are not paid to do.

When somebody starts in with the lawyer stuff, Im thinking "burnout and how much are you going to pay me to do this given your impaired judgement. "

Here, in this state, your maximum liability is how much you made on a job. Not total costs, profited. SO you make $300 on the service ... maybe... The lawyer initial consultation copying fees is going to be more than that.

It always gives me a smile to hear lawyer! lawyer! as opposed to "There seems to be a problem, would you please fix this?"

 

[__dan]

~ 20 years ago, I get a call from some guys I knew in property management. "We want to close on a house with all Al wiring, we need you to inspect and make repairs for the closing.

" I don't have to look at it, I can tell you what to do, just plan to abandon in place the Al and run all new wiring". "Go into the closing and take a deduct for the whole thing, ~ x".

"No, the deduct has already been taken, we need you to inspect and repair"".

"Do you want to keep the house for yourself or do you want to flip it?".

"We want the lot, it would be better if the house was gone". (A high end expensive town)

"OK, the codes change all the time for approved Al/Cu terminations. Let me call the local inspector to see what he will approve for terminations".

I call and introduce myself and the job to the local inspector. He says nothing, then, "here, call this guy".

"Whaaat?".

"Call this guy. He is super fussy. I will approve whatever he says". Quickest conversation ever.

I make the call.

"Hey, do you know " ", he told me to call you. I have to look at this house going into closing with all Al wiring and they want it repaired. He said you were the guy to call".

"Whaaat?"

"Yeah, he said you were super fussy"

"Wow, I can't believe he told you to call me. Wow".

We talk, and then he tells me. He had the same thing three years ago and did a ton of research. Finally he found these approved mini split bolt connectors that were Al/Cu rated. He went through the whole house and remade every splice. He really was fussy, meticulous. Great guy.

So, three months later the house burns flat to the ground.

He was really scared, took him three days just to drive by and look. There was nothing left taller than 3 ft. above grade, a huge house.

Then he says, for the next six months he could not even work. He would get out on the job and start to worry, feel sick, and have to go home. He was waiting for the big lawsuit and could not concentrate or enjoy working. He tried to do something else to get away from it.

Then he says, "it's been three years and the lawsuit never came". "I am just getting back to the point where I can go and do jobs and not worry about it (losing everything). But, I was still afraid to set foot in that town or see the inspector. I cannot believe he told you to call me".

 

[Fulthrotl]

I hate it when people start yellin lawyer lawyer....

Here, in this state, your maximum liability is how much you made on a job. Not total costs, profited.
SO you make $300 on the service ... maybe... The lawyer initial consultation copying fees is going to be more than that.

let me see if i understand what you are saying.... no matter what the consequences
resulting from the work that i do, you are telling me that my liability is limited to my
NET PROFIT on the work done?

is that what you are saying? i find that hard to believe.