240v debate....

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
David, Is there some reason why you will not address how a non-symmetrical waveform does not fit your model of claiming the two phases are at 180??

All you have to do is answer that. Everyone keeps dancing around it.
 

david luchini

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Connecticut
Occupation
Engineer
David, Is there some reason why you will not address how a non-symmetrical waveform does not fit your model of claiming the two phases are at 180??

All you have to do is answer that. Everyone keeps dancing around it.

It is not a phase shift,

First off David, 180? is a phase shift.

Is there some reason you will not address your obvious contradictions? As I have already mentioned, you projected the idea of "Phase Shift" into the discussion. Then you ask why we won't address how a non-symmetrical waveform doesn't fit into a model with a "phase shift" that you have created.


Under the model that I have suggested, using KVL, the graph in the Upper Right is the expected result of Vab=Va-Vb. It works perfectly. I do not see why you think it doesn't.
 

mivey

Senior Member
First off David, 180? is a phase shift.

Secondly, the same question remains posed to you that I posed with Beoseker. If this 180? view (i.e. perspective) was correct, then you should get the same results analyzing a non-symmetrical waveform as you are able to achieve with your symmetrical waveform.
Rick,

You are fixated on phase shifting. This is something that can be critical in the audio world but is not germane to the discussion here. You are so focused on dancing with alligators that you are forgetting the original objective was to drain the swamp (i.e. to get the voltages our loads need).

If you refer back to my Open-Wye to 3-phase 4-wire wire example, it shows you what we achieve by using waveforms that have a difference in phase. In that example, we used the difference in phase between voltages on either side of a winding (twice, in fact) to create the missing third phase. It was more pertinent than closing a delta because the open delta at least has the terminals available with the voltage we seek. The open wye does not even have the terminals we need so we must use the waveforms with the phase difference to get the third voltage. These phase differences are real and there are loads in the real world running on these derived voltages.

Shifting phases is not the same as a difference in phase. As for your symmetry fixation, what makes you think there has to be, or not be, symmetry in the waveforms when we are taking about supply voltages? You are too concerned about how the voltages are created instead of the result we seek: getting the waveforms we need to serve our loads. The way the voltages are derived may cause them to react differently when something happens on the supply side but how is that critical to our mission?

To put it in perspective, if we supply a three-phase load with a three-phase generator vs. a three-phase supply derived from an open-wye source vs. a three-phase supply derived from an open-delta source vs. a three-phase supply derived from a two-phase source, are you going to say that some of those three-phase supplies are not really in existence because they are just math anomalies? The truth of the matter is that the math is a model of the physical world and the physical fact is that the voltages from midpoint to the ends of the winding are different in phase. That is simply how voltages work and there is no universal reference we must use, and regardless of how many times you try to say it, it just ain't so.

Look at Bes's examples again and explain how you get the needed pulses if the difference in phase does not exist. Explain how a center-tapped full-wave rectifier with two diodes works if there is no phase difference between the end voltages. You must go back to voltage fundamentals and review what makes a voltage a voltage and you will recall that the choice of reference is just that: a choice.

I mentioned steady-state before and you did not follow why that was important. The importance is that our loads do not care about the very beginning and ending of signals (like might be important in audio). Those are the facts that we use to call things what we call them. All disciplines of electrical engineering are going to have their own sets of terms and rules and you are not going to find definitions for everything that will work everywhere.
 
Last edited:

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
David, I ignored your previous attempt to quote me out of context in order to distract the topic. I won't bite this time either.

Under the model that I have suggested, using KVL, the graph in the Upper Right is the expected result of Vab=Va-Vb. It works perfectly. I do not see why you think it doesn't.
The discussion is about the 180? phase shift that Beseoker, yourself, and others are claiming is mandatory and defined in the system.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
Mivey,
If it is so trivial and meaningless, then why does everyone, including yourself, keep dancing around it? Why do you keep bringing audio and 3-phase into a discussion about single-phase?

If you are unclear on the topic, then you should go back and reread the thread. The topic is that some people, including you, have stated that a 180? phase shift must exist between the two halves of a single-phase center-tapped transformer. If you wanted to use a minus sign, that would be fine with me, but the discussion is mandating a phase shift as a system definition, not as a tool to resolve a problem.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
The discussion is about the 180? phase shift that Beseoker, yourself, and others are claiming is
I and others claimed no such thing.
As others have pointed out, the term phase shift was used by yourself in post #25.
It was again in post #39:

A 180? phase difference is an 8ms time delay at 60Hz (or 10ms @50 Hz). If this assertion that a 180? phase shift truly existed,
Again, as others have pointed out, there is no time delay.
The waveforms I have posted in #22 and #86 are instantaneous values. It is how the values relate in real time. There is no time delay.
It's a shame that you can't, or maybe won't, see that.
 

david luchini

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Connecticut
Occupation
Engineer
David, I ignored your previous attempt to quote me out of context in order to distract the topic. I won't bite this time either.

Excuse me? Where exactly did I quote you out of context? I think you are making accusations to distract from the fact that you have contradicted yourself. Here is what you said, in context:

The obvious explanation for anyone who has done any work in this field is that the two 120V-N voltages are 180deg apart. Do you have an alternative (and credible) explanation?

Yes. Yes I do, and that is the topic we have been trying to cover for a few days now. It is not a phase shift, and examining a non-symmetrical waveform will reveal this. It is nothing more than a magnitude reversal. A minus sign.

In order for Vl to have a magnitude of 240V, we know that the voltage angles of Van and Vbn must have 180deg between them.

First off David, 180? is a phase shift.

So in what context do you not contradict yourself?


The discussion is about the 180? phase shift that Beseoker, yourself, and others are claiming is mandatory and defined in the system.

You are fixated on phase shifting.

I agree with Mivey, you are fixated on phase shifting. Could you point out where I've claimed there is a mandatory and defined "phase shift" in the system? I haven't said anything about phase shifting, except to point out that you have injected "phase shifting" into the discussion just so you could argue against it.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
Again, as others have pointed out, there is no time delay.
The waveforms I have posted in #22 and #86 are instantaneous values. It is how the values relate in real time. There is no time delay.
It's a shame that you can't, or maybe won't, see that.
If 180? is not a phase shift or time delay, then you should be able to re-do your previous analysis using a non-symmetrical waveform with your 180? inside the time varying voltage function.

You all have been so adamant about this 180?, that maybe a new question should be asked......Are you confusing a polarity reversal (i.e. a minus sign) with a 180? degree phase shift? This is what I started saying from the very beginning that they weren't the same, but it fell on deaf ears, and you all re-affirmed that you meant 180?. You were the one that was specifically arguing that they were the same thing, and that is why I brought non-symmetrical waveforms into the discussion.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
This is what I started saying from the very beginning that they weren't the same, but it fell on deaf ears, and you all re-affirmed that you meant 180?. You were the one that was specifically arguing that they were the same thing, and that is why I brought non-symmetrical waveforms into the discussion.
I made no such claim.
 

david luchini

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Connecticut
Occupation
Engineer
You all have been so adamant about this 180?, that maybe a new question should be asked......Are you confusing a polarity reversal (i.e. a minus sign) with a 180? degree phase shift?

Since none of us have been discussing a "phase shift," I don't see how we could be confusing it with polarity reversal.

Herein, I think, lies some of the confusion.

You are free to choose the personal preference of labeling your voltages A-N and B-N, but in doing so, you cannot ignore the resulting negative sign from not choosing the A-N-B true convention of the actual voltages. If you insist on using the 180? designation, then you must include the negative sign with either your A-N or B-N voltage definition. Those two negatives must cancel out somewhere in your circuit analysis.

If I understand this statement correctly, you are saying that when using a reference of Van at 0? and Vbn at 180?, then one or the other of the two voltages must have a negative magnitude.

For instance, on the 120/240 secondary system being discussed, you would have Van = 120V at angle 0 (120V<0) and Vbn = minus 120V at angle 180 (-120V<-180.) (Or alternately you could have Van = -120V<0 and Vbn = 120<180.)

Applying KVL to this system to figure the voltage across a load from terminals A-to-B would yield; Vl+Vbn-Van=0, or Vl=Van-Vbn.

Vl= Van-Vbn = (120<0)-(-120<-180)
...................= (120+j0)-(120+j0)
...................= (0+j0)
...................= 0 Volts

This is obviously incorrect. The voltage across the load should be 240V, not 0V.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
Since none of us have been discussing a "phase shift," I don't see how we could be confusing it with polarity reversal.
Really? Then you deny making the following posting early on in this discussion?

Besoeker,

I don't know what was so controversial about what you said. In a single phase center tap setup as described, the voltage as referenced from A-to-neutral and from B-to-neutral always have a 180? phase difference. If Van = 120<0 then Vbn = 120<180. If Van = 120<90 then Vbn = 120<-90. If Van = 120<-35 then Vbn = 120<145.
Now you are suggesting that a phase difference is not the same as a phase shift?
 
If the amperage is low enough that either configuration will use #14 wire, then the difference in the losses will also be incredibly trivial. Blindly stating this as though it was something of some importance is the reason why we have so many DIY'ers suggesting that they should rewire all of their motors to 240 volts, because their "electrician" friend told them they will save money, or the motor will run cooler, or the motor will have more power. :slaphead:

Because the losses are I^2*R.
 

david luchini

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Connecticut
Occupation
Engineer
Really? Then you deny making the following posting early on in this discussion?

I don't know what was so controversial about what you said. In a single phase center tap setup as described, the voltage as referenced from A-to-neutral and from B-to-neutral always have a 180? phase difference. If Van = 120<0 then Vbn = 120<180. If Van = 120<90 then Vbn = 120<-90. If Van = 120<-35 then Vbn = 120<145.

I'm sorry, but where do you see the words "phase shift" anywhere in there.

Now consider a 120/240V transformer secondary and want to figure the voltage across a load from terminals A-to-B. From Kirchoff's Voltage Law we know that the sum of the potentials around a closed circuit is 0. So Vl+Vbn-Van=0, or Vl=Van-Vbn. In order for Vl to have a magnitude of 240V, we know that the voltage angles of Van and Vbn must have 180deg between them. Lets call Van=120<30 and Vbn=120<-150:

Or here.

If you're really suggesting that Van=120<0 and Vbn=120<0, then how do you get a calculated voltage of 240V across a load connected between A and B using Kirchoff's Voltage Law?

Vl= Van-Vbn = (120<0)-(120<0)
...................= (120+j0)-(120+j0)
...................= (0+j0)
...................= 0 Volts?
 

mivey

Senior Member
Mivey,
If it is so trivial and meaningless, then why does everyone, including yourself, keep dancing around it? Why do you keep bringing audio and 3-phase into a discussion about single-phase?
I've explained it several times already.

If you are unclear on the topic, then you should go back and reread the thread. The topic is that some people, including you, have stated that a 180? phase shift must exist between the two halves of a single-phase center-tapped transformer. If you wanted to use a minus sign, that would be fine with me, but the discussion is mandating a phase shift as a system definition, not as a tool to resolve a problem.
How a voltage might be created and/or delivered does not dictate exactly how it must be used. Just because I have picked two wires from one voltage in a particular direction does not mean that voltage direction has to be my reference. You can use any reference you want as the choice is completely arbitrary.
 

mivey

Senior Member
If 180? is not a phase shift or time delay, then you should be able to re-do your previous analysis using a non-symmetrical waveform with your 180? inside the time varying voltage function.

You all have been so adamant about this 180?, that maybe a new question should be asked......Are you confusing a polarity reversal (i.e. a minus sign) with a 180? degree phase shift? This is what I started saying from the very beginning that they weren't the same, but it fell on deaf ears, and you all re-affirmed that you meant 180?. You were the one that was specifically arguing that they were the same thing, and that is why I brought non-symmetrical waveforms into the discussion.
A reversal would mean that you have previously picked the other direction as forward. There is nothing that dictates that choice for you as the choice of a reference is completely arbitrary. The case of the neutral reference is probably more common than not since we usually ground the neutral and we use the ground bus as a reference. Even if it is the most common choice (who knows?), there is nothing that says you have to use a neutral reference.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Really? Then you deny making the following posting early on in this discussion?

Now you are suggesting that a phase difference is not the same as a phase shift?
I have already told you (as others have) that they are not the same. A phase shift as you are trying to present it is tied to time, like in audio engineering, and is not the same as a phase difference.

In our arena, you can have a phase difference with no time difference. On the same waveform, a phase difference is a time difference. With different waveforms, the waveforms can start at the same time but differ in phase.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
In our arena, you can have a phase difference with no time difference. On the same waveform, a phase difference is a time difference. With different waveforms, the waveforms can start at the same time but differ in phase.
Well, that's pretty much what I've been saying from the beginning........On the same waveform, a phase shift is a time shift. Are you somehow suggesting that with a single-phase, center-tapped, common-core transformer, you are getting two different waveforms on the secondary from a single waveform on the primary? When you change (ῳt) to (ῳt+180), it's either two waveforms or an added time shift. Those two points do not occur at the same point on a waveform.

Mathematically it is fine to say that cos(ῳt) = -cos(ῳt+180), but it is wrong to extend this mathematical interpretation into the absolute function of a center-tapped transformer. Yes, it works when you have a pure and perfect sinusoidal waveform, but that does not mean the transformer's function can be defined that way. This is why I have been trying to get you to understand the difference of putting a non-symmetrical wave into the transformer.

It's not that I am obsessed on non-symmetrical waves. I am trying to use that as a means to get you to see than there is a difference between your mathematical model and how the transformer is defined. You can mathematically model the transformer any way you wish, but some members here have made assertions that their mathematical model is absolute, which therefore defines the transformer instead of just modeling it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top