Triplex (xlpe covered conductor) Ampacity #6 on a 90A?

Status
Not open for further replies.

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Very interesting discussion on the distinction between products that have to be listed and identified.
Both are defined in art 100.

I am in 100% agreement that all the triplex products I have looked at by all the major mfr's product are not listed.
(And some are advertised as NEC compliant)

Triplex is identified as defined by code.
The product is not required to be listed as per 310.1.
The way 310.1 looks to me anyway.

T396.10 "specifically provides" the requirements for "other" .. "power cable" .. as identified.

The product is required to be identified as per T396.10(A) "other factory assembled ... .... power cable identified for the use ... shall be permitted.

The question remains if you can size the ampacity of the conductors other than under engineering supervision.
An AHJ approving of triplex as per T396.10(A) "other factory assembled ... .... power cable identified for the use ... I think would require the manufacturers ampacity table since they have EE's that calculate the table.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I remember something like this in a code class. 1 guy there, who ran lots of triplex, told about disutes he had on jobs re size needed of triplex. He gave an example. 4 or 5 guys in the class & the 2 inspectors teaching it, all came up with a different answer.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The question remains if you can size the ampacity of the conductors other than under engineering supervision.
An AHJ approving of triplex as per T396.10(A) "other factory assembled ... .... power cable identified for the use ... I think would require the manufacturers ampacity table since they have EE's that calculate the table.



Because the cables you have posted cuts to do not have NEC required markings they are not NEC complaint.

How are you getting around this code section?

310.120 Marking.

(A) Required Information. All conductors and cables
shall be marked to indicate the following information, using
the applicable method described in 310.120(B):

(1) The maximum rated voltage.

(2) The proper type letter or letters for the type of wire or
cable as specified elsewhere in this Code.

(3) The manufacturer’s name, trademark, or other distinctive
marking by which the organization responsible for
the product can be readily identified.

(4) The AWG size or circular mil area.
Informational Note: See Conductor Properties, Table 8 of
Chapter 9, for conductor area expressed in SI units for
conductor sizes specified in AWG or circular mil area.

(5) Cable assemblies where the neutral conductor is smaller
than the ungrounded conductors shall be so marked.

Moving on, because the cables are not marked with the proper type letter or letters for the type of wire or cable as specified elsewhere in this Code, there is NO CORRECT NEC AMPACITY. You could certainly guess, but there is no correct answer.

And finally even if the cable was marked as 150C cable you are limited in ampacity by the terminations on each end of the run.

110.14 Electrical Connections.
(C) Temperature Limitations. The temperature rating associated
with the ampacity of a conductor shall be selected
and coordinated so as not to exceed the lowest temperature
rating of any connected termination, conductor, or device.
Conductors with temperature ratings higher than specified
for terminations shall be permitted to be used for ampacity
adjustment, correction, or both.
 
Last edited:

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
How are you getting around this code section?
There are three things that stand out to me:
1) Triplex cable is marked as per 310.120(B)(1).

2) [2011 NEC] 310.106(D) Insulated. Conductors not specifically permitted elsewhere in this code to be covered or bare shall be insulated. 225.4 "....over head conductors shall be insulated or covered"
See art 100 def of covered.

3) 310.1 "....These Requirements do not apply to .... conductors specifically provided for elsewhere in this code "
Elsewhere is T396.10(A) "other factory assembled ... .... power cable identified for the use ... shall be permitted.
See 90.5 for the use of the word "shall"


General cable has a guide to sizing the ampacity of the cable per the NEC.
If it was prohibited under the NEC then why not quote the NESC or the aluminum industry sizing guide?

Link to guide see page 23.
http://generalcable.com/NR/rdonlyre...5A9ADFA2974/0/GCCableInstallManual_FINAL2.pdf


There is NO CORRECT NEC AMPACITY.
Agreed it is not clear.

And finally even if the cable was marked as 150C cable you are limited in ampacity by the terminations on each end of the run.
See earlier post terminations are rated for 90C
Ampacity is based on 90C and 2ft/sec wind velocity.

Thanks
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Very interesting discussion on the distinction between products that have to be listed and identified.
Both are defined in art 100.

I am in 100% agreement that all the triplex products I have looked at by all the major mfr's product are not listed.
(And some are advertised as NEC compliant)

Triplex is identified as defined by code.
The product is not required to be listed as per 310.1.
The way 310.1 looks to me anyway.

T396.10 "specifically provides" the requirements for "other" .. "power cable" .. as identified.

The product is required to be identified as per T396.10(A) "other factory assembled ... .... power cable identified for the use ... shall be permitted.

The question remains if you can size the ampacity of the conductors other than under engineering supervision.
An AHJ approving of triplex as per T396.10(A) "other factory assembled ... .... power cable identified for the use ... I think would require the manufacturers ampacity table since they have EE's that calculate the table.
The term "triplexed" is recognized by Code as a cable assembly... and nothing more. This does not mean that a triplexed conductor cable assembly is automatically identified. Being identified requires each member conductor to be identified as suitable for the purpose.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
...

See earlier post terminations are rated for 90C
Ampacity is based on 90C and 2ft/sec wind velocity.

...
110.14 termination temperature limitation exclusively uses Table 310.16 [310.15(B)(16) in 2011 NEC]. Using 90?C-rated terminations (not within 10ft of any 75?C-rated termination) limits the maximum conductor ampacity rating to that of Table 310.16 90?C column value for the conductor size used. Any compliant higher conductor ampacity rating provided elsewhere can only be used for adjustment and correction (i.e. temperature correction and derating).

In your case, subject to the 90?C termination requirements being met, #6 AL has a max' rating of 60A per 2008 NEC, and 55A per 2011 NEC.
 
Last edited:

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
The term "triplexed" is recognized by Code as a cable assembly... and nothing more. This does not mean that a triplexed conductor cable assembly is automatically identified. Being identified requires each member conductor to be identified as suitable for the purpose.

I am using the NEC definition in 396.2:
2011-NEC said:
396.2 Definition
Messenger-Supported Wiring. An exposed wiring sup-
port system using a messenger wire to support insulated
conductors
by any one of the following:
(1) A messenger with rings and saddles for conductor sup-
port
(2) A messenger with a field-installed lashing material for
conductor support
(3) Factory-assembled aerial cable
(4) Multiplex cables utilizing a bare conductor, factory as-
sembled and twisted with one or more insulated con-
ductors, such as duplex, triplex, or quadruplex type of
construction


I am using the term Identified as defined in art 100:
2011-NEC said:
Identified (as applied to equipment). Recognizable as
suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, environment,
application, and so forth, where described in a particular
Code requirement.

Now the cut sheets posted in the links earlier meet
.. power cables .. that are identified for the use T396.10(A).

I consider triplex a covered conductor as permitted by 225.4:

2011-NEC said:
225.4 Conductor Covering
Where within 3.0 m (10 ft) of any building or structure other
than supporting poles or towers, open individual (aerial)
overhead conductors shall be insulated or covered. Conduc-
tors in cables or raceways, except Type MI cable, shall be of
the rubber-covered type or thermoplastic type and, in wet
locations, shall comply with 310.10(C). Conductors for fes-
toon lighting shall be of the rubber-covered or thermoplastic
type.
Exception: Equipment grounding conductors and grounded
circuit conductors shall be permitted to be bare or covered
as specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.
Definition of covered:
2011-NEC said:
Conductor, Covered. A conductor encased within material
of composition or thickness that is not recognized by this
Code as electrical insulation.

Triplex as defined by 396.2 (3) or (4) includes the ambiguous term "cable" as well as 225.4. There are two uses of the word cable; "cable" and "in cable". They are not the same meaning or definition. The word cable in 3 and 4 means a grouping of conductors, not covered by any outer jacket. "In cable" as used in 225.4 means a covering the conductor could be in, a an outer jacket or sheath, like SER, NMB or UF cable.
I went with the first paragraph just "insulated conductors".
If we want to just call "in cable" and "cable" the same meaning triplex would have comply with the 2nd part of 225.4 thus 310.10(C), thus be listed.

310.10(C):
(C) Wet Locations. Insulated conductors and cables used
in wet locations shall comply with one of the following:
(1) Be moisture-impervious metal-sheathed
(2) Be types MTW, RHW, RHW-2, TW, THW, THW-2,
THHW, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, ZW
(3) Be of a type listed for use in wet locations

Now we are back to listed which we can all agree it is not, well OK except for this:
http://www.awcwire.com/ProductSpec.aspx?id=XLPE-Power-Cable-UL-RHH-RHW-2-USE-2
but that is the only one I found that is UL listed "UL 44 Type RHH/RHW-2
UL 854 Type USE-2"

Most of the major mfr's triplex is identified not listed.

If requiring it to be listed is hinging on "cable" {396.2 (3) or (4)} and "in cable' {225.4} having equal meaning, it could be argued that they are unenforceable and ambiguous terms, we would have to explain why CMP4 did not put a code section like 310 next to "other" in T396.10(A) and how that could not be construed as "specifically elsewhere in the code" {310.1}.
And explain the dangers it has if utilities use it all the time.

If triplex is identified "covered conductors" supported on a messenger then that last paragraph of 225.4 does not apply and the triplex only has to be identified as defined above, not listed.

As I said the cut sheets meet the requirement for identified.
Refer to the cut sheets I posted links to above.

As stated by 310.1 "These requirements do not apply" ... " to conductors specifically provided for elsewhere in this Code."

"specifically provided for" is exactly right here ->
2011-NEC said:
396.10 Uses Permitted
(A) Cable Types. The cable types in Table 396.10(A) shall
be permitted
to be installed in messenger-supported wiring
under the conditions described in the article or section...
.... From the table:
Other factory-assembled,
multiconductor control, signal, or
power cables that are identified
for the use
No code section trailing after that, just says Identified.
If the CMP4 intends for 310 to apply then it should list 310 next to "Other factory-assembled" . The omission of a code section beside "Other factory-assembled" in the table specifically provides an exemption mentioned in 310.1.


Either way I am not really biased. I am mostly interested determining the ampacity of the XLPE conductors with 90C terminations as per 310.15(C).

Excellent points on the terminations and the splice being "equipment".
The Ilsco tap block is a "fitting" and is therefore equipment.

2011-NEC said:
(1) Equipment Provisions. The determination of termina-
tion provisions of equipment shall be based on 110.14(C)(1)
(a) or (C)(1)(b). Unless the equipment is listed and marked
otherwise
, conductor ampacities used in determining equip-
ment termination provisions shall be based on Table
310.15(B)(16) as appropriately modified by 310.15(B)(7).
However I see the equipment is listed and marked
otherwise for 90C terminations.

The manufactures do spec the ampacity as well.

So if any utility EE's on here want to chime in and give there take on how they size triplex and the ratings of there terminations that would be interesting.

Here is the commentary in the handbook:
NEC handbook commentary P 496 (C) 2011 NFPA:
Some of the triplex and quadruplex cable used by utilities as
service-drop cable does not use conductors recognized in
Table 310.104(A) and does not meet the requirements of Ar-
ticle 310. Such triplex and quadruplex cable would be accept-
able only where approved by the authority having jurisdiction.
See 310.15(B) and Table 310.15(B)(20) for two or three
single-insulated conductors supported on a messenger. See
310.15(C) and Informative Annex B, Table B.310.15(B)(20)
(3), for ampacities of conductors for other cable types.

Table B.310.15(B)(20) does not seem to take into account wind velocity where as (21) does.
It would be interesting to see an example calculation using wind velocity.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I am using the NEC definition in 396.2...
It appears you are quite adamant in your interpretation, for which I will at the very least give you credit for being scrupulous. So I will end my contribution with a couple comments...

First, it seems you conveniently left off the Informational Note to the definition of Identified, which states, "Some examples of ways to determine suitability of equipment for a specific purpose, environment, or application include investigations by a qualified testing laboratory (listing and labeling), an inspection agency, or other organizations concerned with product evaluation." As such, my impression of Identified is that an authoritative third party must be involved in the determination of Identified equipment.

Second, regardless of being identified, listed, or labeled as suitable, or not, the ultimate determination rests on the AHJ...
110.2 Approval. The conductors and equipment required or
permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved.
.
Informational Note: See 90.7, Examination of Equipment
for Safety, and 110.3, Examination, Identification, Installa-
tion, and Use of Equipment. See definitions of Approved,
Identified, Labeled,
and Listed.​
Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
It appears you are quite adamant in your interpretation, for which I will at the very least give you credit for being scrupulous. So I will end my contribution with a couple comments...

First, it seems you conveniently left off the Informational Note to the definition of Identified, which states, "Some examples of ways to determine suitability of equipment for a specific purpose, environment, or application include investigations by a qualified testing laboratory (listing and labeling), an inspection agency, or other organizations concerned with product evaluation." As such, my impression of Identified is that an authoritative third party must be involved in the determination of Identified equipment.

Second, regardless of being identified, listed, or labeled as suitable, or not, the ultimate determination rests on the AHJ...
Thank you, it is a very not straight forward clear as mud part of the code.

You are right I did leave that out as well as others I felt like the post was getting too long.
And yes it does boil down to that -> 110.2.
However when you are the AHJ and requiring it to be listed would result in a enormous cost of rework where it would be cheaper for the customer / contractor to take it to court, it is wise to have really looked into it.
Imagine a entire collage campus run with non listed triplex for example..

I think the ampacity of the terminations is a good way to go.
And engineering supervision.

Thanks a bunch for your input.
I really appreciate how much time and thought people put into there replies.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I know one place overhead triplex doesn't work is in an underground installation:happyno:.

Seen that before - there was practically nothing left of the bare conductor except for the steel messenger.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top