3-Way Switch Location (Help)

[Dennis Alwon]

Actually the NEC doesn't require a 3-way for stairs either, you could just put a SP switch at each landing to control a fixture at each landing, as per the wording in the NEC.

I don't think Chris was saying that 3 ways were required for stairs. He said the only place that req. locations for switch is for the stairs.

 

[readydave8]

In all my years as both an electrician and inspector I have never see a kitchen light controlled by a switch located in the basement.

Chris

I saw one.

It was the result of some remodeling. 3/way in kitchen & in basement. The owner didn't know the switch in the basement was for the kitchen lite, one of the 3/ways went bad, kitchen lite wouldn't work. I wire nutted a traveller to common in basement to fix kitchen lite.

 

[jusme123]

I just had this very issue with 2 doors leading to the outside patio. There was one light and one switch and the other door was 10' away but to get to the other door you had to walk a good distance in the house around a bathroom and thru a bedroom. Inspector wanted a switch at each door. The lone light illuminated both doors. He insisted on a 3 way or 2 sp. for 2 lights because it was so far away.

The code will allow the switch to be on another floor if you want. Now I don't see why the code is written this way but there is no wording to support another switch. Does anyone know why a switch is not required at the door to a room or outside.

I feel the same way about color coding. Why does the code not have a standard color coding system for the 2 widely used voltages in the USA (red, bk, bl for1220/208v and br, or, yl for 277/480v).

 

[jeff48356]

I just had this very issue with 2 doors leading to the outside patio. There was one light and one switch and the other door was 10' away but to get to the other door you had to walk a good distance in the house around a bathroom and thru a bedroom. Inspector wanted a switch at each door. The lone light illuminated both doors. He insisted on a 3 way or 2 sp. for 2 lights because it was so far away.

The code will allow the switch to be on another floor if you want. Now I don't see why the code is written this way but there is no wording to support another switch. Does anyone know why a switch is not required at the door to a room or outside.

I agree with the inspector. I would have wired it this way right off the bat, for common sense. I think the NEC should be changed to add a number of additional requirements for 3-way switches. Your situation is one, as well as hallways and other rooms with more than one entrance/exit. Examples: A dining room, a pass-through bathroom, a master bedroom, and a living room. In fact, for the living room, I would require a pair of 3-way switches to control the top halves of all the outlets in the room. One switch at the front entry, and another as you enter the hallway.

 

[hurk27]

I agree with the inspector. I would have wired it this way right off the bat, for common sense. I think the NEC should be changed to add a number of additional requirements for 3-way switches. Your situation is one, as well as hallways and other rooms with more than one entrance/exit. Examples: A dining room, a pass-through bathroom, a master bedroom, and a living room. In fact, for the living room, I would require a pair of 3-way switches to control the top halves of all the outlets in the room. One switch at the front entry, and another as you enter the hallway.

Because the NEC or the inspector is not paying the bill for all that extra wiring, the customer is, and it is up to the customer how much extra connivance he wishes to pay for.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with the inspector. I would have wired it this way right off the bat, for common sense. I think the NEC should be changed to add a number of additional requirements for 3-way switches. Your situation is one, as well as hallways and other rooms with more than one entrance/exit. Examples: A dining room, a pass-through bathroom, a master bedroom, and a living room. In fact, for the living room, I would require a pair of 3-way switches to control the top halves of all the outlets in the room. One switch at the front entry, and another as you enter the hallway.

Don't take this personally but you would be a terrible inspector. You cannot require what the NEC does not just because you feel like it. Suppose an inspector thought it best that a house be wired in 12 awg, then what. I want 3 way switches between the door to the bedroom and at the bedside. What next?

For one, in the case given it was an existing situation all we did was add sheetrock and some wiring in the bath, storage and office area. The bedroom already was sheetrocked and it was passed years ago. Now that really should not change anything anyway. I agreed there should be a switch there but the homeowner didn't want one and the code does not require one. You cannot inspect based on intent as we often do not know the intent. I feel if that was the intent, a switch at ever door, then I believe it would have been written by now.

 

[maloo]

You cannot require what the NEC does not just because you feel like it. Suppose an inspector thought it best that a house be wired in 12 awg, then what.

Last I knew Davenport, Iowa required 12 awg minimum wire, at least residentially. Cedar Rapids, Iowa requires all wiring in unfinished areas, residentially, .to be EMT, IMC or RMC with no more than 18 inches NM exposed. CR also bases residential service entrance minimum based on square footage of the home not solely on calculations and they have also delete the outlet on the end of a peninsula countertop. Looks to me that inspectors can add or delete anything from the code they feel like as long as they can get it passed the appropriate government officials.

 

[kwired]

90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

How does requiring specific switch locations for general lighting fit into what is said in 90.1?

Maybe having switch locations specified in other codes makes sense but not in the NEC based on 90.1.

That said there are existing articles where one can ask similar questions about.

 

[raider1]

Last I knew Davenport, Iowa required 12 awg minimum wire, at least residentially. Cedar Rapids, Iowa requires all wiring in unfinished areas, residentially, .to be EMT, IMC or RMC with no more than 18 inches NM exposed. CR also bases residential service entrance minimum based on square footage of the home not solely on calculations and they have also delete the outlet on the end of a peninsula countertop. Looks to me that inspectors can add or delete anything from the code they feel like as long as they can get it passed the appropriate government officials.

Local amendments that are legally adopted are different then an inspector just making up his or her own code requirements.

Chris

 

[roger]

Yep, I think that argument of not installing a light would not make it in most of the real world.

Dennis, actually I think it would if someone was trying to require it as an NEC rule.

2-251 Log #575 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.70)
__________________________________________________ __________
Submitter: Alan H. Nadon, City of Elkhart, IN
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
210.70 Lighting Outlets Required. Lighting outlets, that provide illumination,
shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), (C).
Substantiation: As currently worded, only 210.70(A)(2)(b) requires a lighting
outlet to actually illuminate anything. The definition of a lighting outlet, in
Article 100 does not require anything more than a junction box with switched
conductors intended to be connected to a lampholder, light fixture, or pendent
light. A proposal has also been submitted to change or amend the definition of
lighting outlet. Proper illumination ensures safe movement for persons thus
preventing many accidents.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The objective of the NEC is to provide the requirement for the lighting outlet. The requirements specific to illumination are in the building code.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12​

Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12

Roger

 

[Stevareno]

Looks to me that inspectors can add or delete anything from the code they feel like as long as they can get it passed the appropriate government officials.

The NEC is the basics. From my understanding, the AHJ can supplement the NEC (as stated above), but they cannot (or are not suppsed to) delete/ignore any requirement that is called for.

 

[charlie b]

I have submitted five proposals for the 2014 NEC. Four of them will be rejected, :happyyes: the exception being an obvious error in cross-referencing articles. One of the four deals with this issue, by requiring a wall switch near every doorway, either inside or outside the room.

 

[renosteinke]

After a prolonged wait, I went to theparts house and received the "special order" switches I had ordered: a mixture of 'illuminated' and 'pilot light' switches.

Wow. said the clerk ... I had one of these once in a place I lived ... it was great! No more fumbling about, wondering just where the switch was.

My point exactly ... you're most likely to look for the switch when it's dark. Why not help yourself a bit?

The illuminated switch? To tell me when I left the lights on in the shed. But I wander ....

My point is that, as nice as the switches are .... there's a real difference between good design, and the role of codes.

Switch location is such a situation. The switch need not be on the wall at all; it can be part of the fixture. Nor is every switch best located by a 'doorway.' (Think about your home hallway ... there's probably one end without any door at all!)

Switch inside the dark room - or outside, on the approach? I've seen it make sense both ways.

You simply cannot write a rule to cover every situation .... and we don't want to try to require everything to be the 'best,' do we?

 

[cowboyjwc]

The NEC is the basics. From my understanding, the AHJ can supplement the NEC (as stated above), but they cannot (or are not suppsed to) delete/ignore any requirement that is called for.

Many of the jurisdictions that amend the code to leave sections out may be violating the law, but it may only be a California law, that allows local jurisdictions to make the NEC more restrictive, but they can't make it less restrictive. So just doing some checking and CA adopts the Historic Building Code so by default we adopt it. I was also informed that the state can make the decision what codes to adopt and which sections, once they are adopted by the state, we are required to also adopt them within 6 months.

 

[al hildenbrand]

And, as a thought for good reasons to place a switch in remote residential locations, relative to the controlled lighting outlet, consider:

Duplexes, triplexes and 4 plexes built in the first 40 years of the 1900s (in my area) that had a single laundry area and separate storage areas in a common basement would be wired so a single pole switch, somewhere in each unit, would permit the unit's occupants to turn off all their basement lighting and laundry outlet.

Years back, I wired a luminaire intended to light the inside of a decorative cupola on top of a detached Victorian carriage house. The cupola was originally a means of ventilation, but now had frosted glass windows. The illumination was intended only to be seen by people looking at the outside of the carriage house. The light switch, a dimmer, was mounted inside the dwelling kitchen . . . another building entirely.

IMO, once the NEC language starts trying to ensure locations for switches, solutions such as I mention above may be in jeopardy.

 

[kwired]

The NEC is the basics. From my understanding, the AHJ can supplement the NEC (as stated above), but they cannot (or are not suppsed to) delete/ignore any requirement that is called for.

The NEC is not a law until the AHJ makes it a law. They do not have to adopt the NEC at all if they wish. It is easy to just adopt it as is because NFPA has done all the work already to make the NEC, and it is seen as an industry standard. The AHJ can certainly add or delete any section they want and make it part of their law. The AHJ is a public entity (at least when it comes to laws) and can have any amendments publicly disputed and possibly changed if there is interest in doing so.

There could be situations where AHJ is a private entity but the situation with them is usually not the same as a public entity. Someone inspecting for the purpose of determining the amount of risk for insurance purposes could very well have their own standards that could very well be more strict than the law, don't meet those standards and you don't qualify for the best premiums.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

We also have to remember that the AHJ and the inspector are not the same. The AHJ has the legal authority to adopt codes and rules and the only authority of the inspector is to enforce the rules that have been adopted by the AHJ.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis, actually I think it would if someone was trying to require it as an NEC rule.

Roger

That's was my point-- it would be required in the real world, esp. the exterior lighting which was what we were talking about at some point.

 

[roger]

That's was my point-- it would be required in the real world, esp. the exterior lighting which was what we were talking about at some point.

Dennis, my point is, it is not required unless it is some other code, and in the real world I have wired spec homes that only had track installed in some rooms and covered "lighting outlets" in other rooms so that the buyer could pick out fixtures later.

I agree that there are some locations in the NEC that require illumination but those are specific areas.


Now, I'll stop because I don't want to completely hijack the thread.

Roger

 

[hotline]

That is a lot of answers for a simple question.
Maybe the code should be updated to be more specific as it relates to switches and there locations.