boboelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- Eighty Four,Pa.15330
I'm going to wire a new hot tub,240 volt/50 amp 2 wire and ground.The book says to bond the interior to a ground rod using #8 awg. I will to cover warranty issues,but is this code?
Hot Tub Grounding
- Thread starter boboelectric
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kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Nothing prohibits a ground rod.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
As far as the NEC is concerned it's not prohibited nor required. If used it would become an auxiliary electrode.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
It is code in the sense that we must follow manufacturers instructions. Probably the reason for the ground rod is to protect their electronics from lightning or surges. That is the only reason I can think of for that requirement.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Hopefully the equipment has a built in surge arrestor that shunts the surge to ground otherwise that reason does not have much validity IMO.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Well I cannot think of any other reason for a ground rod, can you?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Uneducated people writing requirements, just like the 6 AWG EGC some hot tub makers require.
mbednarik
Member
- Location
- central iowa
- Occupation
- Electrician
I think they are referring to 680.26(B)2, which would be required by 680.42. But a ground rod is not really the correct way to do this, a #8 ground ring (680.26(B) does not require the GEC rules or connection to the other electrodes) would be a better method, and a ground rod attached to that.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
No doubt yet UL stamps it based on what the company writes. I can get a UL approval equipment and state anything I want. It's like the hydromassage tub manufacturer that req. a #8 back to the panel for bonding. It's is total BS but we have to abide by it since the manufacturer wrote it even if written by an uneducated individual. Why are they writing the manuals????
- Location
- Massachusetts
That is how it has to work, the company designing the equipment can exceed whatever standard they want to. To prohibit designers from exceeding minimum standards would be counter productive.
In most cases market forces will keep the designers from needlessly exceeding the standards but obviously in some cases that does not seem to be the case from our vantage point.
I don't know, I will toss a guess into the fray.
Perhaps positioning themselves for any lawsuits coming from electrical accidents.
1) Even if the EC wired it per company requirements the company can still play up how the installation was beyond minimums. Seems like that would sound good even if meaningless.
2) If the EC does not put in the additional items the company suddenly points all blame on the EC for not following the instructions.
Of course the above is a total guess and could be entirely wrong.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
No, I think it is spot on. At least that is my take-- CYA seems to be their MO, even with meaningless dribble.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
It is too bad that we can't have a boycott of these companies. Basically telling the ho's that certain companies are costing you needless amounts of money on the install. It seems like it is just a few companies and not the majority.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I agree.
This seems like an odd case where adding requirements does not cost the company direct money or sales as I doubt many consumers base their hot tub buying decisions based on the electrical installation requirements. From reading posts on the forum it does not seem like the hot tub dealers are interested in really letting the customers know how much more the electrical installation will be.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
The does not say that. It says"
Manufactures instructions are not really part of the listing and labeling. As far as I am concerned, if the requirement is not in the actual listing standard or the White Book, it is not a 110.3(B) instruction. I know that UL says otherwise, but I don't agree, and I will never agree as long as UL continues to "classify" breakers.
That is speaking to how I read the code. That does not mean that I would ignore a manufacturer's "recommendation" on an installation. I would have to comply with the recommendation to protect myself from civil suits in the event of a malfunction of the equipment.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Don, I have talked with UL and they insist that their instructions are part of the listing and labeling. Maybe you know someone higher up the food chain but that is what I am told.
boboelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- Eighty Four,Pa.15330
Thanks for responses.I drove an 8 ft rod and connected a #8 bonding conductor as per instruction manual.These tubs have ipod ports and sterio outputs. Who has the time?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Yes, I am well aware of what UL says, but until they stop classifying breakers I will continue to say that the only listing and labeling instructions are those found in the standard itself or in the White Book. They cannot have it both ways, but that is exactly what they are telling me when they says all of the instructions provided are 110.3(B) instructions and then they turn around as say when some one pays them money to classify a device for use in violation of the original equipment manufacturer's instructions that is ok.
I am also not convinced that UL has the authority to provide binding interpretations of the NEC rules. To me the rule is clear and it does not include compliance with anything other that what is found in the listing standard.
I installed some light fixtures last year where the fixture instructions provided specified a specific brand of tools to be used. According to UL that is a 110.3(B) instruction:?
One brand of receptacle specifies that it be installed in a device box. That would prohibit the use in a 4" square box with a plaster ring.
When I ask UL about those instructions, they just say that those are not 110.3(B) instructions.
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