hot work

[bohl1076]

Let me start by saying I am a california state certified electrician. I was sent yesterday to a site that had A and B phase bus bars burned up from the test block to the meter inside the switch gear. The meter had also blown a hole through the top of it. This fed a panel for pole lights through out a shopping center. My boss wanted me to open it up, open the shorting nuts, and then using other bus bars, piece something together to "bypass" the meter section so the site will atleast have lights untill we can get the meter assembly needed to make it right. When San Diego Gas & Elect. showed up to cut the meter lock, the guy said no way and called for back up so they could disconnect it from the transformer, before even getting close to the gear! My boss was MAD. I told him I was glad, cause I didn't want to do it "hot". He then proceeded to tell me that my certification by the state says that I am qualified to do such work and I have the PPE stocked on my truck. I knew I had the PPE, but was still very uncomfortable with the situation, and wasn't going to do it, even if it costed me my job. My wife and I are having our second child in less then 3 weeks, and I'd rather them have a dad with no job, then no dad at all. So after all that, my question is this- does my state certification mean that i am qualified, and authorized to just open up switch gear and start working on energized gear with the proper PPE? I also stated to my boss that if I'm expected to perform such work, he needs to provide me with hot work tools, a rubber blanket to stand on, and a 2nd person to be present. I've been trying to find any info from cal/osha, and anywhere else, but haven't found anything specific on hot work yet.
thanks,
forever working safe,
John
P.S.- Thanks to SDG&E for showing up, and having their safe working pratices!

 

[bohl1076]

So I just read safety FAQ, and got some good info. from zog about 70e, from what i gather my employer and I are both right. Except that there was no need to do this work hot and having SDG&E disconnect power was the right thing to do.

 

[Cow]

It only takes one arc flash to send molten copper into your eyes and blind you for life. I think about that every time somebody says "just do it hot." No thanks, I'd rather be fired.

 

[hillbilly1]

If you had been working for us, you and your boss would have been fired if you attempted to work it hot. We have a very strict no live work policy. You made the right call.

 

[Hv&Lv]

As a utility employee, I fail to see why any electrician wants to do that type of work hot. We will be happy to disconnect the power, we do it all the time for electricians. As a licensed electrician, I still can't see the need for hot work when the utility is happy to disconnect it, especially something like you described. When it comes to mine or your safety and someone elses convenience, there is no doubt about the call. I say good call.

 

[hillbilly1]

As a utility employee, I fail to see why any electrician wants to do that type of work hot. We will be happy to disconnect the power, we do it all the time for electricians. As a licensed electrician, I still can't see the need for hot work when the utility is happy to disconnect it, especially something like you described. When it comes to mine or your safety and someone elses convenience, there is no doubt about the call. I say good call.

It comes from municipalities being rigid in not allowing the POCO to turn it back on without a permit and inspection, and with most municipalities, you will not get a permit or inspection until Monday morning. If the customer goes down on a Saturday or Sunday, and power is pulled, they will be without power until Monday costing the customer thousands of dollars in business. Of course who said government is efficient, but they need some means of temporary re-energization. Most contractors and customers would be happy to sign a release relieving the city or county from liability until the repairs are completed and inspected. This would cut down on contractors thinking they have to do it "live" by a large percentage.

 

[M4gery]

As a utility employee, I fail to see why any electrician wants to do that type of work hot. We will be happy to disconnect the power, we do it all the time for electricians. As a licensed electrician, I still can't see the need for hot work when the utility is happy to disconnect it, especially something like you described. When it comes to mine or your safety and someone elses convenience, there is no doubt about the call. I say good call.

Things aren't as seamless as they apparently are in your area. I've heard (from people posting online) of linecrews disconnecting in the morning and waiting in the area for you to finish your service changeout so they can reconnect in the afternoon, but I have NEVER seen this in real life. I don't "want" to cut a service in, but it's simply the -only- way unless my customer is willing to wait a couple days without power to their home.

Today I added a bathroom exhaust fan with heat, this required a new circuit to be ran from the panel. The panel was a main breaker type, no outside disconnect. I added the new romex and new breaker to the panel with the main shut off but the panel still "hot" before the main. This is a situation in which I can't see having the PoCo come and cut the drop or pull the meter for me to do. What do you do in this situation? Work hot like I did?

What about when you are in a large junction box in a commercial setting and you need to add/remove something? That box may have 40-50 circuits in it from multiple panels. Do you shut the entire building down before working in it just to be sure? Do you go thru and remove every wirenut and test every circuit in the box to make sure they are dead? That may take hours and puts you at more risk than not touching those circuits at all.

 

[kwired]

It comes from municipalities being rigid in not allowing the POCO to turn it back on without a permit and inspection, and with most municipalities, you will not get a permit or inspection until Monday morning. If the customer goes down on a Saturday or Sunday, and power is pulled, they will be without power until Monday costing the customer thousands of dollars in business. Of course who said government is efficient, but they need some means of temporary re-energization. Most contractors and customers would be happy to sign a release relieving the city or county from liability until the repairs are completed and inspected. This would cut down on contractors thinking they have to do it "live" by a large percentage.

I don't have much trouble with POCO's here being able to turn something back on in a reasonable time either, but I can understand in higher population areas that that could happen a lot easier. Thing is OP had POCO willing to work with them from what I understand. If I were him I would have told his boss to either do it himself or get a generator if they were not expecting to get it back on. I would not have even accepted an extra bonus payment for this incident.

As far as POCO not turning it back on without permit - isn't it getting turned off no matter what? If the contractor cuts it themselves aren't they bypassing the proper procedures and may be in trouble as far as permits and inspections anyway?

 

[zog]

So I just read safety FAQ, and got some good info. from zog about 70e, from what i gather my employer and I are both right. Except that there was no need to do this work hot and having SDG&E disconnect power was the right thing to do.

I love a happy ending

 

[iwire]

As a utility employee, I fail to see why any electrician wants to do that type of work hot. We will be happy to disconnect the power, we do it all the time for electricians.

I agree but many electricians claim the power company will not disconnect, I suspect it is more about lack of planning and patience on the ECs part.

 

[M4gery]

As far as POCO not turning it back on without permit - isn't it getting turned off no matter what? If the contractor cuts it themselves aren't they bypassing the proper procedures and may be in trouble as far as permits and inspections anyway?

I agree but many electricians claim the power company will not disconnect, I suspect it is more about lack of planning and patience on the ECs part.

I always call ahead of time, it's always the same. I'm given permission to cut the tag myself and cut the service drop as well as reconnect when finished. I am then told that a line crew will be in the area in the next week or two to do a proper reconnect (either upgrading the overhead line or just re-splicing with their own crimps).

 

[hillbilly1]

I'm talking about emergency situations, where a main burns out, or wire needs replacing. An unplanned event. I never had an issue with the POCO refusing to turn it off, it's just getting them to turn it back on. The smaller towns, this is usually not an issue, but the bigger cities where they have a God complex, it's harder to get anything done. I have a job right now where I have to pour a 2'X4' concrete pad for a piece of equipment outside, and the city at first wanted to have the developer to re-submit the watershed plan for the 30 acre development because of this pad, but later OK'd taking out a eight foot square out of the hardscape elsewhere instead. And they wonder why nobody wants to permit anything!

 

[readydave8]

I agree but many electricians claim the power company will not disconnect, I suspect it is more about lack of planning and patience on the ECs part.

Maybe not, since Georgia Power did away with our local office it's been harder sometimes, I had a shutdown scheduled a few years ago 2 weeks in advance and they couldn't keep to schedule, not during any kind of ice storm or other disaster, I had to talk to person in Alabama when I dialled the local # and think they were confused. Not just a one-time thing, had other glitches as well.

It's not as bad now, I go to nearest office in person to schedule, now the even give me cel phone # of truck for reconnect.

 

[K8MHZ]

I've heard (from people posting online) of linecrews disconnecting in the morning and waiting in the area for you to finish your service changeout so they can reconnect in the afternoon, but I have NEVER seen this in real life. I don't "want" to cut a service in, but it's simply the -only- way unless my customer is willing to wait a couple days without power to their home.

90 percent of the service upgrades we do get snipped in the morning and re-connected around 3pm the same day with the inspection being at 1 or 2 pm. The inspector even calls the POCO for us letting them know we are ready for power. They are usually there within the hour. The POCO here is Consumers Energy.

We can get same day service from Consumers on any job we want, so long as we make an appointment. Usually we get a day 4 - 7 days out from when we call.

We used to be able to cut without the POCO, but they won't let us do it any more. In the days of old all we had to do was to schedule the inspection and connection. We not only could do the snip, we were also allowed to connect a receptacle to the POCO's line and use it free for the day. Now, neither is allowed.

 

[bohl1076]

Thanks guys for all the feed back. I'm sure my bosses concern was getting the POCO to turn power back on in time, even wanted them to stick around for me to splice the line and load together, so they could reconnect, but their answer to that was no it's stealing power. The switch gear was old and finding replacement parts wasn't as easy as going to will call at the wholesale house and picking one up! The end result was, we found a replacement, and got it in, inspection is set for monday, and in the mean time got a generator and back fed the panel all weekend. It definitly cost the customer more money, but much safer in the long run. Their lights aren't as important as my family! I'm not one of those cowboy type electricians and dont pretend to be! I'll do it, but only if I have all the safety stuff and then some!

 

[kwired]

We not only could do the snip, we were also allowed to connect a receptacle to the POCO's line and use it free for the day. Now, neither is allowed.

Why can't you just tape a quarter to the leads for the POCO guy to collect when he is there for reconnect I'd be suprised if you used much more energy than that. :happyyes:

I'm sure there is more than just the cost of energy behind this policy.

 

[Hv&Lv]

90 percent of the service upgrades we do get snipped in the morning and re-connected around 3pm the same day with the inspection being at 1 or 2 pm. The inspector even calls the POCO for us letting them know we are ready for power. They are usually there within the hour. The POCO here is Consumers Energy.

We can get same day service from Consumers on any job we want, so long as we make an appointment. Usually we get a day 4 - 7 days out from when we call.

We used to be able to cut without the POCO, but they won't let us do it any more. In the days of old all we had to do was to schedule the inspection and connection. We not only could do the snip, we were also allowed to connect a receptacle to the POCO's line and use it free for the day. Now, neither is allowed.

This is the way it is supposed to work, just as you have described. A lot of the area electricians have our cell numbers and can call someone at the office or a service crew directly. I have received calls directly from the head of the inspection dept. okaying reconnects. As long as he gives me an inspection number, I am covered.
If you decide to cut our line at the weatherhead to start work, fine. Just call me and let me know I don't need to come by to cut it loose. A couple of electricians have dropcord ends with alligator clips for the bare ends of the drop. Our line loss is much more than the (as quoted in another post) quarters worth of energy used. You would have to use quite a bit to use a quarters worth anyway.
I actually have more trouble getting an inspection than the other electricians simply because I work for the utility. (My job isn't worth an illegal hookup)

 

[GonzaloGomez]

California Electrical Safety Orders

California Electrical Safety Orders

Please realize that the California Electrical Safety Orders (Cal-ESO) are the actual regulations in California, not NFPA 70E. The actual Electrical Safety Orders can be vague, so using NFPA 70E as a means of compliance is a good idea. The Cal-ESO does not mention or reference NFPA 70E (that I could find).

From California Code of Regulation, Section 2320.2:

(a) (1) Responsible supervision has determined that the work to be performed whaile the equipment or systems are energized.

This may be interpreted as being not as restrictive as NFPA 70E.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Please realize that the California Electrical Safety Orders (Cal-ESO) are the actual regulations in California, not NFPA 70E. The actual Electrical Safety Orders can be vague, so using NFPA 70E as a means of compliance is a good idea. The Cal-ESO does not mention or reference NFPA 70E (that I could find).

From California Code of Regulation, Section 2320.2:

(a) (1) Responsible supervision has determined that the work to be performed whaile the equipment or systems are energized.

This may be interpreted as being not as restrictive as NFPA 70E.

So California Code of Regulation trumps OSHA?

 

[iwire]

So California Code of Regulation trumps OSHA?

Nope, local codes and standards can exceed OSHA but cannot reduce OSHA requirements.