Nightmare ArcFault OD...in the AHJ's daughter's house!!!

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melanconelectric

melanconelectric

Member
Location
West Monroe, LA
Am I the only one who has trouble out of 80% of the AFCI breakers I install! Just completed two spec houses next door to each other. During trim out and inspection, AFCI circuits plagued both houses with "ghost in the machine" and now that they have sold, the problem is still there. I am using GE AFCI 120 stab in breakers in both. I have literally torn BOTH houses apart trying to make this issue right. Nothing, absolutely nothing is wrong with either of these homes yet, the circuits in question will just open at will. One , in particular, is subject to the use of a Dyson vacuum cleaner which works on other AFCI circuits in the same home. I can not find anything wrong with these circuits!! Soooo, the questionable AFCI was accidentally changed to a GE 120 and low and behold, it was the AHJ's daughter and son in law's new home. Just got a call from "dad", he wants the AFCI's back on the job! These homes are wired textbook, 60% of capacity, all drops are pigtailed, all devices and conductors are rated properly, no faults on anything, neutrals and grounds are NOT touching anywhere! What am I doing wrong? (besides changing out AFCI with reg breakers!!!!):dunce:
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I hate to say it but I have trouble twice with GE afci. The one time I had to replace them with an older generation AFCI because of the fans signature- free from GE tech support. The other was my helpers oops.
 
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arits74

Senior Member
Location
dixie arkansas
Occupation
working owner electrician
we use nothing but square d homeline arc faults and rarely have a problem.usually if we do have a problem its just a neutral and ground touching somewhere.swap your ge breaker out with another brand just to see what happens.
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
I would lean torward it being a wiring issue that you have not found yet. Especially since the vacuum works fine on the other afic circuits, and you probably have already swapped those breakers around to this circuit testing it. Could be a ground wire too close to a hot or neutral in a box, and with the slamming of a door or other vibration momentarily causes it to touch. Those intermitent problems are the toughest to track down!
 
goldstar

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Try swapping the arc fault breakers with circuits that work. If you still have a problem with a particular circuit unfortunately you know the problem is in the circuit and not the breaker. On the other hand, if you're lucky and it's the breaker then replace it and go out and buy a lottery ticket.:cool:
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
hillbilly1 said:
I would lean torward it being a wiring issue that you have not found yet. Especially since the vacuum works fine on the other afic circuits, and you probably have already swapped those breakers around to this circuit testing it.
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I agree. The problem could be hard to find but there probably is a real problem. I think I would turn of the circuit and try to draw it out on paper ( I like to have an idea what all is on a circuit) and then see how far from the panel I could get before the breaker trips.

If he can't isolate this way then he would have to meg each individual section of the circuit.

I have been lucky and haven't had problems with the AFCI breakers that I install on circuits that I wire but I have seen them in other houses and there normally is small problem that was overlooked that would not have shown up with a regular breaker.

One thing about those AFCIs they do keep you honest.
 
Ponchik

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Are ALL of the connections tight (wire nuts, terminal screws on receptacles, on breaker, on the neutral bar... anywhere there is a connection on that circuit)
 
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chris500

Member
Location
FL, MO, IL, KS, TX
Every time I have had to troubleshoot tripping arc fault circuits that the original installer swore nothing was wrong with the wiring ended up being a staple being driven too tight.
 
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templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
If the resolution isn't obvious I would disconnect all of the loads from the circuit in question first.
Then I would remove the breaker or turn off the breaker and disconnect the line, neutral and ground of that circuit isolating it from the panel. Then take an ohm meter and measure the resistance between the neutral and EGC to assure that they are insulated and isolated from one another. If not you have to ring out the circuit to find the cause.
If no issues are found then reconnect each load one by one while monitoring the reistance which may also include turning any light switches back on one at a time.

Doing so will at least eliminate these potential issue by assuring that the circuit is not the issue.
 
T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
If you do not want to de-energize the circuits for finding any leakage to ground,you may put all wires through the loop of an induction type ammeter and check current.It should read zero_Otherwise,there is leakage.
 
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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I've had the same issue & I'm pretty sure it was GE also. No problem anywhere but all was OK when I unplugged a sound system that was made into a bed headboard. GE makes a great refrigerator or stove, but lousy electrical products. More than once, I've had bad GE breakers new from the box.

I didn't think of it at the time but I should have metered the sound system for neutral/ground fault. That may have been it, & may possibly be the issue with the vac. Did you think to meter the vac plug? Or it may go back to GE being junk.
 
J

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
chris500 said:
Every time I have had to troubleshoot tripping arc fault circuits that the original installer swore nothing was wrong with the wiring ended up being a staple being driven too tight.
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I have really taken a liking to the plastic staples from Big Orange for that reason. I hated seeing them for a long time, too homeowner looking. But they do keep from pinching wire & are easier to drive in old seasoned lumber. Even if the nails bend, they still hold & don't damage wire. Someone would almost have to purposely drive it wrong to damage wire.
 
sii

sii

Senior Member
Location
Nebraska
ptonsparky said:
Try adding some wire to the circuit by looping it around the interior of the panel a time or two. We had a CH that was causing us grief and that solved the problem. Sounds like you have already checked it for common mistakes.
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Not doubting this, just curious. What is the explanation for why this worked?
 
ptonsparky

ptonsparky

Tom
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
It changes the impedance of the circuit. It worked for us on that particular installation. Just something to try if all else fails. I was not there but my help looked for all the typical causes, switched AFCIs, etc. I then talked him thru the process of adding 25' of cable to the circuit. It worked. He settled for looping the hot a couple times around the interior of the panel. Seems there can be a "sweet spot" for AFCIs with the length of cable being a problem. I believe it was a CH tech note that pointed me to that fix.
 
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