480 primary/208 volt secondary frequency converter calculation

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jazer

Senior Member
Location
Gibsonia, Pa
I want to install a frequency converter to power a 100 amp rated busway at 208 Y. I have a 480 Y service. The converter is available to take the 480 Y input and make the 208 Y output. I want to find out what size KVA converter I will need plus the size of primary fusing. Hence:

100x208x1.73/1000=36 KVA (40 KVA is next available)

Full load current is 40000/480=83.3/1.73=48 amps

Can I use the 125% rule? Which would give me 60 amp primary availability? In turn which would allow me to fuse at 70 amp primary?

Also, all of my connected loads to the busway will be 120 volt ONLY. Should I be using single phase formulas?

Also, if I wanted to find the total KVA rating of combined 208 Y busways that will have a total of about 750 amps combined, all at 120 volt, what formula would I use?
 
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rcwilson

Senior Member
Location
Redmond, WA
Also, all of my connected loads to the busway will be 120 volt ONLY. Should I be using single phase formulas?

Also, if I wanted to find the total KVA rating of combined 208 Y busways that will have a total of about 750 amps combined, all at 120 volt, what formula would I use?

You have 3-phase frequency converter, so use three phase formulas. Your 208/120V Y busways will feed single phase loads. 750 Amps x 120V = 90,000VA = 90 KVA. 90 kVA at 208V 3-phase = 250Amps. Three phases each loaded to 250 amps = 3 x 250 = 750 Amps.

You will need at least three of the 40 kVA converters and three 100 amp rated busways to feed a total single phase 120V load of 750 amps. Each converter can supply 40000/(208 x 1.732) = 111 Amps on each 120V leg.

Sizing the 480V feed at 125% of the converter rating is probably OK, but check the manufacturer recommendations and the full load amp input rating. The unit will have some losses, maybe 5-10%.
 

jazer

Senior Member
Location
Gibsonia, Pa
So instead of:

100x208x1.73/1000=36 KVA, which is giving me the capability of 300 amps total at 120 volt loads only

Should I use:

100x120=12 KVA
12 KVA at 208 Y=33.3 amps secondary
12 KVA at 480 Y=14.5 amps primary

So that I may use much smaller converters?
 

jazer

Senior Member
Location
Gibsonia, Pa
Please let me start over.....

I have 360 total pieces of PC equipment that draw 2 amps each at 120 volts.
That is a total of 720 amps.
I cannot fit more than 37 of these PCs in a row under a busway. Hence, 74 amps per busway.
The busways are RATED for 100 amps. I dont need to fuse them at 100 amps.
74x120=8880 VA

8880/208x1.73=24.6 amps (a three pole 30 breaker, should be bumped to a 40)
8880/480x1.73=10.7 amps (a three pole 15 breaker, will probly get a 20)


24.6 amps per leg=73.8 total on one busway to cover my 37 MAX PCs.
12 busways X 74=888 total available amps. More than enough to cover my total expected load.


So, can i get away with 10 KVA freq converters instead of my original calculation of 40 KVA?
The only real problem I can see with this route is ensuring that the loads are always balanced, so not to trip the 30 or 40 amp breaker, correct?
 

rcwilson

Senior Member
Location
Redmond, WA
You had it right the first time.

3 phase, 4 wire, 208 V/ 120V busway rated 100A. That's 100 Amps per phase. 120 V x 100 Amps x 3 phases = 36000 VA = 36 kVA.

Same answer as when we say it is a three phase 208V/120V load at 100 Amps. 208 x 100 x 1.732 = 36,026 VA=36 kVA.

Make sure the busway is 4-wire with a neutral bus.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I want to install a frequency converter to power a 100 amp rated busway at 208 Y. I have a 480 Y service. The converter is available to take the 480 Y input and make the 208 Y output. I want to find out what size KVA converter I will need plus the size of primary fusing. Hence:

Why a frequency converter?
Do you need to change frequency?
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
You are maing it too complicated

You are maing it too complicated

Please let me start over.....

I have 360 total pieces of PC equipment that draw 2 amps each at 120 volts.
That is a total of 720 amps.
I cannot fit more than 37 of these PCs in a row under a busway. Hence, 74 amps per busway.
The busways are RATED for 100 amps. I dont need to fuse them at 100 amps.
74x120=8880 VA

8880/208x1.73=24.6 amps (a three pole 30 breaker, should be bumped to a 40)
8880/480x1.73=10.7 amps (a three pole 15 breaker, will probly get a 20)


24.6 amps per leg=73.8 total on one busway to cover my 37 MAX PCs.
12 busways X 74=888 total available amps. More than enough to cover my total expected load.


So, can i get away with 10 KVA freq converters instead of my original calculation of 40 KVA?
The only real problem I can see with this route is ensuring that the loads are always balanced, so not to trip the 30 or 40 amp breaker, correct?

First off, the converters need to be sized for the load not the breakers. You could have 500A busses, with 500A breakers and only 74 amp converters. The converter protection is independent of this and per the manufacturers instructions. So get that out of the way.

You have 37 units at 2 amps each on one leg of one bus. Since you don't explain what the output of the converters is I will explain assume the following from previous posts. If this is not the correct assumptions, please write back again.

If you have a 3 phase inverter, required to feed 74 amps per phase on a 3 phase bus, the next thing you need to know is whether the loads are continuous, or if you want head room for design comfort. If you want either of the above then modify the 74 amps accordingly (i.e. 74x125%=92.5) and use that amperage as a base.

The rest is straight forward. 74 amps x 208 volts x 1.73 (which is the square root of 3 and represents the phase angel between the phases) = 26,628 va End of story. You had it all, but got hung up with all the little stuff. If all 37 loads are not expected to be at full usage for a minimum of 3 hours at a time, and a computer is not going to, then it is not a continuous load and you don't need the 125%. The calculations of the load requirements are competely independent of the calculations for feeder circuits, bus sizes and overcurrent protection. Whatever reference you were making to balanced loads also has nothing to do with these calculations. If you are putting 37 loads on a phase and can't put any more on then that prevents overloading. While the entire system and electrical grid is more efficient with balanced loads, it has nothing to do with the above calculations per phase.


BTW, if you actually mean that you can only fit 37 units total on a 3 phase bussway, then that obviously changes everything, and that is why I say that you have not described your actual situation comprehensively. If we are not giving the correct responses, please try describing the exact installation, wihtout trying to determine sizes or solutions.

37 units at 2 amp divided by 3 bus phases is 9 12 with 1 left over. So 13 x 2 = 26 amps maximum per phase 26A x 208V x 1.73 = 9356 va again doesn't allow for continuous loads.

Still don't know exactly what you need to accomplish. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse more. Keep it simple.
 

jazer

Senior Member
Location
Gibsonia, Pa
37 units at 2 amps each, 120 volt, total under a 3 phase Y bus system. Sorry for being unclear. I do NOT need to carry 37 units on EACH phase. Which is why I am concerned with grossly oversizing these converters. Thank you in advance.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
37 units at 2 amps each, 120 volt, total under a 3 phase Y bus system. Sorry for being unclear. I do NOT need to carry 37 units on EACH phase. Which is why I am concerned with grossly oversizing these converters. Thank you in advance.

Then I assume the last part of my post clearly answers you question. The only thing you must determine is whether your loads are continuous, or not per the NEC, and whether the manufacturers instructions have any recommendations or requirements that go beyond the code.

This last is a very importnat step for all installations.
 

jazer

Senior Member
Location
Gibsonia, Pa
37 units at 2 amp divided by 3 bus phases is 9 12 with 1 left over. So 13 x 2 = 26 amps maximum per phase 26A x 208V x 1.73 = 9356 va again doesn't allow for continuous loads.


Sorry, I don't follow this part? 9 12 with 1 left over? Sorry for the density!!
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Then I assume the last part of my post clearly answers you question. The only thing you must determine is whether your loads are continuous, or not per the NEC, and whether the manufacturers instructions have any recommendations or requirements that go beyond the code.

This last is a very importnat step for all installations.

Sorry, the 9 was a typo. So now that the installation is understood, here is a summary:

37 units divided by 3 bus phases is 12,12,13 Using the highest phase we have 13 x 2 = 26 amps 26A x 208V x 1.73 =9.356KVA. If you determine the loads are continuous, which I doubt the 9.356A x 125% =11.7KVA.

So after all of that, You repeat all of you calculations on the feeder panel. This is based on the calculations per bracnh, but is a separate issue.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
120116-0848 EST

jazer:

Your question from the start was very unclear. Now it is closer and Strathead has routed you to a solution.

Two additional points.

What voltage regulation or adjustability do you need from the converters?

You need to know the losses (efficiency) of the converters, and power factor to determine the input kVA. From the input side of the converters you need to know the load power on the output side, not the kVA, and then how this reflects to input kVA.

For example: the computer I am presently using is rated at 4 A @ 120 V, 480 VA, but the actual load power is about 87 W as configured and used. A very big difference.

.
 
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