Unfused Sevice Entrance

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RichB

Senior Member
Location
Tacoma, Wa
Occupation
Electrician/Electrical Inspector
Ok folks here goes another I remember reading it but can't find it now question--We were discussing this and one of our gutys said he got hit on it but now can't find the referance--We are in Wa state under the 08 code--also it may be in the WACS--anyway here's the question--How far into a structure can you run the un-fused power,ie, like from the meter base to the panel? We've all looked through 230, 240 and 300 and can't find it.

Thanks all!!
 

infinity

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Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
The NEC provides no set distance.

VI. Service Equipment ? Disconnecting Means
230.70 General.
Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the service-entrance conductors.
(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).
(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.
 

RichB

Senior Member
Location
Tacoma, Wa
Occupation
Electrician/Electrical Inspector
Thanks Rob-- That was what our consensus was too--just wanted to confirm it with the gurus!! I have a bad habit of remembering stuff like that wrong -- the" I know it's there cuz I've always done it that way" syndrome!
 

infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
You might want to see what some others from Washington have to say. I believe that their interpretation (15'?) was much greater than what's allowed elsewhere.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Right ... my house, the one I have just started to remodel .... was built in 1957. This whole corner of the town was wired with only a meter can on the outside, and SER going to the FPE panel in the bedroom closet. That unfused cable goes up the outside wall, across the bedroom ceiling, and down the closet wall, into the panel. With only six breakers, there is not even a main breaker.

It seems "nearest the point of entry" was construed in a very liberal manner. As in "reasonably cclose to where the cable actually enters an interior wall."

You can be sure that is getting changed- and soon.
 

cowboyjwc

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Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Here in our jurisdiction it's "nearest the point of entrance shall mean at the point of entrance."

Yes, I know, we run them inside the wall, we also only use RMC for our risers, at least in this jurisdiction.
 

cdslotz

Senior Member
Here in Ft Worth they have an ordinance that defines it as 15 or 20' (I don't remember exactly).
But no, the NEC does not define it
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Here in our jurisdiction it's "nearest the point of entrance shall mean at the point of entrance."

Yes, I know, we run them inside the wall, we also only use RMC for our risers, at least in this jurisdiction.

I seen photos of California services like that, some in Florida also and cringe every time, while the RMC might be a good protector of the conductors, I have also seen how easily it melts away when the SEC's short out at the main breaker panel, if the availible fault current is high like a close transformer, its amazing how those SEC's can burn right through the RMC.

We had a house over on the beach that had the SEC's that was in RMC under the concrete floor accross the basment up in to a inside meter and panel, it might have been 1" under the concrete at most, while we were there trimming out a remodal the sideing guys shot a nail right through the back of the meter cabinet and into the one of the hots, the wire just started burning down into the conduit and accross the floor under the carpet the concrete was exploding as it made its way accross the floor, there were places where it burned holes through the carpet luckily it was flame retardent, but it was amazing that it just kept going and going till it got to the pole about 10' from the house and started up to the transformer under a PVC saddle cover which is where the RMC ended and it extenguished, needless to say, the service point and meter was moved to an outside place with a main disconnect and the existing panel was refed by feeders, what was nice was it left a nice trench in the floor that didnt need allot of cutting to run the new conduit in.

It was an eye opener as to how much damage unprotected SEC's can cause when shorted, now anytime I see SEC's inside of a house I tell the home owner this story to try to get them to install a disconnect outside or right where they enter the house, I have seen where they would add onto a house and leave the service where it was by covering over the SEC's into a new wall, many times they are just SE cable.

I saw some U-Tube videos showing SEC's burning in a pipe going up a pole looked like fire works going off in a pipe there was utility guys just standing there but wouldn't go near it or even attempt to shut the transformer down, they just let it burn free.
 
T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
......... SEC's burning in a pipe going up a pole looked like fire works going off in a pipe there was utility guys just standing there but wouldn't go near it or even attempt to shut the transformer down, they just let it burn free......
Why POCO can not put fuses at the beginning of the cables?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Here in our jurisdiction it's "nearest the point of entrance shall mean at the point of entrance."

Yes, I know, we run them inside the wall, we also only use RMC for our risers, at least in this jurisdiction.

Seems like you need to put the service disconnect at the roof. :p
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
while the RMC might be a good protector of the conductors, I have also seen how easily it melts away when the SEC's short out at the main breaker panel, if the availible fault current is high like a close transformer, its amazing how those SEC's can burn right through the RMC.

I agree 100%, the RMC cannot contain the mess from a fault.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
In my area our Inspector allows 2' from meter base In Rigid conduit.
More than 2' must install a disconnect box.


I've heard of these types of interpretations. However the NEC does not differentiate one wiring method from another when determining inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. If 2' were good for rigid then it would be good for any other method. By 2' I'm assuming that you mean 2' into the structure? Conduit on the outside of the building can be of unlimited length.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Sahib, perhaps you will understand this discussion better if I describe what is typical. I know we do things a bit differently than some other places.

The power to the house comes direct from the transformer. Typically, there are no fuses or cut-outs on the output side of the transformer.

Arriving at the house, the wired go straight to the meter. At the top of the mast, there is a permanent splice made, with no fuse or disconnecting means. From the meter, the wires proceed to the "customer" side of the service.

There are no fuses on the "PoCo" side, in part because the PoCo seals this part. They forbid you to break that seal, under criminal penalty. The purpose is to prevent power theft. You are charged for what electricity goes through the meter. They want to make it hard for you to connect to the wires before the meter. This is also why PoCo's usually object if the mast is not visible -no running it inside the walls.

Only after the meter does the power enter the "customers' side. " These days, it is typical for there to be a main breaker just under the meter, which also serves as a disconnecting means for the house. This has not always been the case.

In the past, especially in older cities with brick buildings, it was common to place the fuse box inside the house, directly behind the outdoor meter. The unprotected wires only entered the house for a few inches before they arrived at the panel. This was considered adequate. This is exactly the situation the NEC was allowing when it spoke of 'nearest the point of entry.'

Very often, there were other restrictions on such an entry; for example, there would be a requirement that the unfused wires be in a pipe less than 6ft. long and the wall be masonry. These restrictions were seen as helping ensure that the wires were not damaged when say, someone hung a picture on the wall.

Yet, those other restrictions were local rules, and not part of the NEC. This was, in part, because they addressed specific types of construction. The USA is a big place, and regional practices vary quite a bit. Rules that make sense for an alpine chalet are pure idiocy in hurricane country. "One size" rarely fits all.

Back to the NEC. As evidenced by my house, some places were pretty accomodating when it came to defining the point 'nearest' the entry, and defining 'entry.' There was also the '6 throws' rule. Combine these two rules, and you wind up with the panel being placed in the closest bedroom closet, and there being no main disconnect at all. Without a local ammendment, the unfused wires are a simple cable.

In this situation, the only ways to kill the power are to either pull the meter or cut the wires at the top of the mast. Ironically, many of these older homes are now in marginal neighborhoods, so the meters are now sealed with tamper-resistant seals. Even cutting the wires is, under the recent application of 'live work' rules, forbidden to the local electrician. This means that only the PoCo can disconnect the power.

My town, together with the PoCo, has ammended the situatio to where they now require an outdoor disconnect, right after the meter. When I do my service change, I will be required to have this disconnect. Until someone upgrades their service, though, the older, dangerous, situation will continue to exist.

For the American readers: In other countries, it is common for there to be fuses at the pole, just before the wires go to the house. In these places, the linesman routinely pulls the fuses for non-payment of the electric bill. The 'meter' for these places resides IN the panel, and is a rectangular thing about the size of your fist. No 'seal' or meter ring, as we know it. That's probably the design Sahib has.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I'd rather have my SEC inside of a piece of RMC than just running down the side of my wood sided building.:happyno:

Most of our service drops are fused at the pole. I say that, but it's not a fuse in the true sense of the word, it will open if there is a fault, but it wants to keep trying to reset it's self and that usually doesn't help.
 
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