Price for starter sound right? TY

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ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Hey all.

Just throwing a question out on equipment pricing.

Needed to replace a 10hp 240v 3 phase starter today.

Couldn't get it from one supplier who didn't have anything with 24v coil.

Went to another supplier who gave me the contactor with coil, separate bolt in heater part, and a plastic enclosure. It was an Italian manufacturer.

This starter was $600. I asked for my own head what a sq.d or cutler hammer in a metal enclosure costs. He looked it up and said $900 something.

Also this starter was size 2 and is rated up to 30 hp.

I mentioned it seamed like overkill ( I needed 10hp) he mentioned the size 1 is rated up to 7.5 hp.

It's been a few years since I've purchased starters. Does this info and pricing sound about right?

(I didn't purchase the starter as the person I put it in for paid......just curious).

Thank you

Rich
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Back up.....I don't know......from the link I'm seeing nema size 1 and ratings for 10 hp @ 3phase.
Looking around I see size 2 to be 10 hp rating.

Enclosed is one chart, but I've seen several others with the same info.

http://www.oddparts.com/acsi/defines/start.htm

Was size 2 the way to go, or would the cutlerhammers at above link been ok?

(motor is 208v 10hp 3phase 28.8amps)
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
ritelec said:
Back up.....I don't know......from the link I'm seeing nema size 1 and ratings for 10 hp @ 3phase.
Looking around I see size 2 to be 10 hp rating.

Enclosed is one chart, but I've seen several others with the same info.

http://www.oddparts.com/acsi/defines/start.htm

Was size 2 the way to go, or would the cutlerhammers at above link been ok?

(motor is 208v 10hp 3phase 28.8amps)
Click to expand...

Most motor starter sizing charts, in catalogs, list the 480V HP versus Nema size.

You are correct you will need a NEMA Size 2.
 
T

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Are you comparing apples to apples? The wasno mention of NEMA vs IEC and it a UL listing was important. If supplies as individual components it may not be UL.
And remember that IEC products are very application specific where AC1, AC2, AC3 and AC4 duties are to be considered and if selected carefully can save a considerable amount of money.
The NEMA starters provide much more latitude in their application and are generally more expensive.

Also, depending upon the line voltage if 120v is availble you may consider a commonly available 120vac coil and then purchase an interposing relay with a 24vac coil for use with you 24vac control circuit hich would be used to control the 120v coil. You would wire the inrterposing as one would normally wire contriol and place the 120v coil of the contactor in series with a N/O contact of the relay. The relay closes an energizes the contaor coil.
Just a thought.......
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Thank you for the responses.

Will research nema vs. iec ..............not UL listed ? Oh my. Nothing easy about this stuff.

Loosing alittle sleep on this install.

Replaced this starter in a blower motor enclosure (like a roof top ac enclosure than you open the panels on).

It shakes when the units running. Don't like it.

Thanks again.

(the 24v was there in the blower enclosure used for the original starter. No 120v around. Something funky about this too I think but..... 3 phase 208v from disconnect to 3 phase starter. Tapped from the 3 phase to x former for
24v, 24v energizes and opens a motorized louver, louver open sends 24v to coil. So in the system somewhere, that 3 phase is controlling the motor....thru the lauver motor)....


Rich
 
Last edited:
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Could someone size the circuit/circuit conductors for this motor for me?

There are 8's feeding the disconnect, and to a j-box where the 24v transformer and starter are fed are 8's. At that point its spliced to 10's feeding the line of the starter and to the motor, #14 to the x former and louver.
( through 1- 5 amp cartridge fuse).

Reason I'm asking is for confirmation.

In the past I did two hubs for a well known trucking company.
In working with the engineers who designed these systems, although most of the motors were low hp, some where a bit larger and there was voltage drop to consider (or at least I thought so......
......amazes me how some people through that voltage drop right out the window....but anyway) so I upped conductor sizes on certain motors occasionally getting a ribbing from the engineers.

But, say for instance, a motor as stated above which draws 28.8 amps (I didn't trace the circuit out, I was directed to replace the starter) which is fed from the 8's spliced to 10's....which may or may not be on a 30 amp..
I would see this motor fed from a 40 amp circuit ( or 125% of 28.8 = 37.......so if it was fed from a breaker (80%) might be a 50 amp circuit).
I ask because, I will be talking to an engineer whose company has a service contract at this facility.
As far as what we do, from what I understand, is sizing the conductor for the motor.... the OC protection protects the conductors, the heaters protect the motor....we also apply additional amperage in our motor
calculations, which from what I've seen, engineers mostly do not.

Also though, from what I've seen is that there are certain exceptions stated in our code that reads something to the effect that "unless the design was engineered ...etc...)

Should I walk away from this starter (accept for maybe trying to get the shake shake out of it)... or should I talk to the engineer about properly wiring it.

30 amp, 40 amp or 50 amp ?

Thank you for your thoughts,

Rich
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
ritelec said:
Will research nema vs. iec ..............not UL listed ? Oh my. Nothing easy about this stuff.
Click to expand...
Actually the IEC versus NEMA argument is kind of a red herring, UL listing has nothing to do with sizing. The primary difference is that NEMA sizing causes you to buy a 15HP starter for your 10HP load, if you want comparable life out of an IEC style, then you need to buy a 15HP device not a 10HP one.
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
jim dungar said:
The primary difference is that NEMA sizing causes you to buy a 15HP starter for your 10HP load, if you want comparable life out of an IEC style, then you need to buy a 15HP device not a 10HP one.
Click to expand...


Thanks jim.............as mentioned the size 2 installed is 30hp rated..............(UL rated, I don't know........it's Italian ;) ) reckon if I get rid of the shake, it will last forever.
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
ritelec said:
Thanks jim.............as mentioned the size 2 installed is 30hp rated..............(UL rated, I don't know........it's Italian ;) ) reckon if I get rid of the shake, it will last forever.
Click to expand...
I was trying to give an example, not exact sizing. Being Italian does not impact its possible UL Listing.

Good luck with the shakes.
Do you have a bearing issue with then impacted the original starter?
 
ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
jim dungar said:
Being Italian does not impact its possible UL Listing.
Click to expand...

:D

jim dungar said:
Do you have a bearing issue with then impacted the original starter?
Click to expand...

Maybe, They were loosing a phase thru the original sprecher shuh contactor part (sporadic). When jogging to test rotation and motor, it seamed to labor a bit.....but would start and run.

The 10's feeding in and out are "dry" and very hard to strip......on the leg that was being lost, the #10 within 4 to 6 " was brittle and cracked when bent. Not sure if it was do to the arcing and sparking of that phase,
or because they should have been 8's, or because of the 60 or 75 degree rating of the wire to dissipate the heat from the contactor.

28.8 fla? Through a circuit size at me please....I won't hold you to it.

:thumbsup:
 
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