Request advice on long wire pull (please)

[Richardtheelectrician]

Okay, here's the situation. 300' of 2" pvc between the meter and the residence, probably just 3 90's. Wire is presently size 4 AWG. I want to replace it with 2/0.
I will probably need a tugger and a generator to power it. I have some ideas on how to accomplish this cleanly, the first time, but honestly my only experience with large wire pulls comes from my union days a decade ago, and that was all EMT and rigid, etc.
Should I pull out the #4's except one, and use it to pull in the 2/0? Or use the last #4 to pull in a rope? I can't see how using the #4 as a pull wire would work with the tugger. Any advice or tips would sure be appreciated.
Richard

 

[Strathead]

Okay, here's the situation. 300' of 2" pvc between the meter and the residence, probably just 3 90's. Wire is presently size 4 AWG. I want to replace it with 2/0.
I will probably need a tugger and a generator to power it. I have some ideas on how to accomplish this cleanly, the first time, but honestly my only experience with large wire pulls comes from my union days a decade ago, and that was all EMT and rigid, etc.
Should I pull out the #4's except one, and use it to pull in the 2/0? Or use the last #4 to pull in a rope? I can't see how using the #4 as a pull wire would work with the tugger. Any advice or tips would sure be appreciated.
Richard

If you are going to use a tugger then I would tie the rope or a string to one of the wires and pull them all out at once. Unless there is some rusted metal pipe, #4 should come out of a 2" OK. Next question is, how many people do you have? Are you pulling 3#2/0 and no ground or what? can you get close enough to use your truck? To save money, one time deal, you could wrap a rope around the hitch or a lumber rack one time, have one person holding the rope, one slowly moving the truck and one to two people feeding. The one wrap and a person holding gives you control if there is a problem. If you need 2 wraps, it probably won't work because the rope can bind up on itself and then you have a safety issue. Otherwise, rent the generator and go for it.

 

[LEO2854]

Okay, here's the situation. 300' of 2" pvc between the meter and the residence, probably just 3 90's. Wire is presently size 4 AWG. I want to replace it with 2/0.
I will probably need a tugger and a generator to power it. I have some ideas on how to accomplish this cleanly, the first time, but honestly my only experience with large wire pulls comes from my union days a decade ago, and that was all EMT and rigid, etc.
Should I pull out the #4's except one, and use it to pull in the 2/0? Or use the last #4 to pull in a rope? I can't see how using the #4 as a pull wire would work with the tugger. Any advice or tips would sure be appreciated.
Richard

You need to pull in a pulling rope you want to do it once ,,Not 5 Times

Make up the head as if you are trying to pull through 500 90's so there is no way it will pull apart.

 

[texie]

Richard,
In my view there really is no substitute for a properly setup tugger if you want to be safe and effecient. I think I would also be inclined to pull a mandrel through after you pull out the old conductors to be sure the pipe is good to go.

 

[Richardtheelectrician]

If you are going to use a tugger then I would tie the rope or a string to one of the wires and pull them all out at once. Unless there is some rusted metal pipe, #4 should come out of a 2" OK. Next question is, how many people do you have? Are you pulling 3#2/0 and no ground or what? can you get close enough to use your truck? To save money, one time deal, you could wrap a rope around the hitch or a lumber rack one time, have one person holding the rope, one slowly moving the truck and one to two people feeding. The one wrap and a person holding gives you control if there is a problem. If you need 2 wraps, it probably won't work because the rope can bind up on itself and then you have a safety issue. Otherwise, rent the generator and go for it.

The truck is a good idea. What do you mean by the hazard of two wraps? (ps, I'm new here, just figuring out how to use the reply function).

 

[Richardtheelectrician]

Richard,
In my view there really is no substitute for a properly setup tugger if you want to be safe and effecient. I think I would also be inclined to pull a mandrel through after you pull out the old conductors to be sure the pipe is good to go.

Looking up "mandrel" now. I will wait a while before replying again, to get more good advice, and to be able to properly respond. Thank you.

 

[Strathead]

The truck is a good idea. What do you mean by the hazard of two wraps? (ps, I'm new here, just figuring out how to use the reply function).

OK, when you use a tugger, you wrap the rope around a capstan. wow, how to explain this.... Think of the tugger as a multiplier. You still need to have control of your pull and you need to "feel" the pull. A tugger does this! You wrap the rope, and if you wrap it twice, you need 1/2 as much tension on the rope to "feel" the pull as if you wrap it once and so on. If you use my truck suggestion, you don't have this luxury, because just wrapping around the going 180 degrees around the ball give means that you have to hold the rope for virtually 100% of the tugging force. Wrap around 540 degree and you can hold with much less force, but any further and you take a VERY strong chance that the rope will twist up or bin up on itself and no longer slip around the ball. Once this happens, you have no control and 1 foot of truck movement could equal 1 foot of conduit pulled out of the ground.

 

[texie]

Looking up "mandrel" now. I will wait a while before replying again, to get more good advice, and to be able to properly respond. Thank you.

Here ya go: http://www.toolup.com/condux_080289...ce=CAfroogle&utm_medium=CA&CAWELAID=631506802.

I'm just skittish about old/existing conduits when long and expensive wire is involved.

A big reason I like a properly rigged tugger, as opposed to the more crude methods we've all used from time to time, is that it puts an opposite equal force at the point of attachment so you don't risk yanking the pipe out or the box off the wall. Of course it's a lot safer too, both for the wire and the people involved.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Okay, here's the situation. 300' of 2" pvc between the meter and the residence, probably just 3 90's. Wire is presently size 4 AWG. I want to replace it with 2/0.
I will probably need a tugger and a generator to power it. I have some ideas on how to accomplish this cleanly, the first time, but honestly my only experience with large wire pulls comes from my union days a decade ago, and that was all EMT and rigid, etc.
Should I pull out the #4's except one, and use it to pull in the 2/0? Or use the last #4 to pull in a rope? I can't see how using the #4 as a pull wire would work with the tugger. Any advice or tips would sure be appreciated.
Richard

check around and see if you can rent a tugger and a rope for a day.
around here, that would be $125 or so.

google says you have three rental options.... and one is home desperate.
so if five star rentals doesn't have a tugger...... seems there are a
few electrical contractors, see if ya can find a commercial one with
a tugger he'd be willing to rent.

i've pulled with a forklift, a backhoe, a bobcat, etc.

what your most likely solution would be is a spool of 5,000 lb mule
tape as a rope, and a 4x4 winch to tug... pull out all the cable,
attach to the rope or mule tape with a cats paw, and heave away.

when you get two blocked, unreel the winch cable, rehook, and
continue. you are gonna need a sheave to pull around, and a way to
hold it up in the air....

you can buy mule tape in baby rolls of 1,000' and it'd be
cheaper than buying a rope. 300' of 12,000 pulling rope is about
$350.

do NOT use nylon or any rope with elastic properties. extreme safety
hazard.

when you order the wire, order simpull wire, and pull it dry. no lube.

 

[mike7330]

my 2 cents

my 2 cents

check Chapter 9 Table 1 FPN No2
and I would install 4/0-4/0-2/0 urg al.

 

[dkeaux@gmail.com]

Hang a shieve, pull in a rope large enough to grab without burning your hands, soap it up real good, one guy pushing (not just feeding) one guy pulling. (the shieve will double your pulling power)

Okay, here's the situation. 300' of 2" pvc between the meter and the residence, probably just 3 90's. Wire is presently size 4 AWG. I want to replace it with 2/0.
I will probably need a tugger and a generator to power it. I have some ideas on how to accomplish this cleanly, the first time, but honestly my only experience with large wire pulls comes from my union days a decade ago, and that was all EMT and rigid, etc.
Should I pull out the #4's except one, and use it to pull in the 2/0? Or use the last #4 to pull in a rope? I can't see how using the #4 as a pull wire would work with the tugger. Any advice or tips would sure be appreciated.
Richard

 

[ritelec]

i've pulled with a forklift, a backhoe, a bobcat, etc.

I've read many of your posts, and see the pride you take in "doing it right".

Would this not be a code violation?


(as I have memories of my brother pulling out 500's (maybe 250's, was along time ago), some 300' from a pole to a school.....tide to a little Nissan pick up truck........running full speed at the school, back wheels flying off the ground a
couple of feet as the rope became taught..........He convinced me to let him use the 1 ton van as that's what is was made for ( :blink: ).........it ripped the bumper off........retide to a stronger part of the truck......and eventually
got them out..............what a day )

 

[Richardtheelectrician]

Be assured I am reading all replies closely. This is the toughest job my little one man outfit has tackled.

 

[stickboy1375]

I personally would install 4/0 AL...

 

[iwire]

can you get close enough to use your truck?

I am going to recommend avoiding the truck method if you can.

Unless you have a truck with some real low gears it is very tough to go slow enough to be safe for the guys feeding without beating the crap out of the truck.

Yes, it can be done but in my opinion is a last resort method.

 

[stickboy1375]

Without seeing the job, 300' doesn't sound all that bad, especially pulling in 4/0 AL conductors, I've done my share of long pulls and always with just 2 guys, 3 is a blessing though... Not trying to convince you it will be easy, but i've just always done them by hand.

 

[K8MHZ]

i've pulled with a forklift, a backhoe, a bobcat, etc.

When I was a second year apprentice, I had a less than bright foreman that decided to try using a 'Lull' (Basically a small payloader sized fork lift with an extendable boom. It was on the site to move skids of concrete blocks around). Since I was the only one at the site that knew how to operate the thing (it belonged to the brickys and never ran. I made a deal that if I got it running we (the electricians) could use it. So I fixed it.) I got the honor of operating the Lull.

I forget how big the conductors were, but they were in an underground run of 2" PVC. The Boss and apprentii #2 blew in the lines and hooked them up to the reels at the other end. I was pulling straight up from a stubbed up piece of PVC.

As gently as possible I started lifting the forks. Then, the elasticity of the nylon rope got to it's max. Since the Lull could lift like 10,000 lbs I couldn't feel a thing different when it happened, but in about 2 seconds our end of the PVC run emerged from the ground.

Before that, as a 1st year apprentice, we had a real big pull that required back to back tuggers. They were chained with logging chain to a metal guardrail. The meters on both pegged at 3,000 lbs. and snapped the logging chain.

Those were the good old days.

 

[Strathead]

. (the shieve will double your pulling power)

Could you provide the physics for this statement? I single shieve will not double your pulling power, it may however, give you better leverage, or allow you to utilize gravity or your body weight more effectively. In order to double your pulling power mathmatically you would need to halve the distance that each pull moves the wire.

 

[ActionDave]

I am going to recommend avoiding the truck method if you can.

Unless you have a truck with some real low gears it is very tough to go slow enough to be safe for the guys feeding without beating the crap out of the truck.

Yes, it can be done but in my opinion is a last resort method.

I agree with Iwire on this and times it by two.

I saw an electrician (not me, honest, really) rip about 75' of conduit off a building trying to pull wire using his truck.

 

[mike7330]

I agree with Iwire on this and times it by two.

I saw an electrician (not me, honest, really) rip about 75' of conduit off a building trying to pull wire using his truck.

LOL!! thats why wire pullers are the Equipment to use. They clamp to the end of the pipe and pull Against the pipe .