Request advice on long wire pull (please)

[kwired]

If you are going to use a tugger then I would tie the rope or a string to one of the wires and pull them all out at once. Unless there is some rusted metal pipe, #4 should come out of a 2" OK. Next question is, how many people do you have? Are you pulling 3#2/0 and no ground or what? can you get close enough to use your truck? To save money, one time deal, you could wrap a rope around the hitch or a lumber rack one time, have one person holding the rope, one slowly moving the truck and one to two people feeding. The one wrap and a person holding gives you control if there is a problem. If you need 2 wraps, it probably won't work because the rope can bind up on itself and then you have a safety issue. Otherwise, rent the generator and go for it.

OK, when you use a tugger, you wrap the rope around a capstan. wow, how to explain this.... Think of the tugger as a multiplier. You still need to have control of your pull and you need to "feel" the pull. A tugger does this! You wrap the rope, and if you wrap it twice, you need 1/2 as much tension on the rope to "feel" the pull as if you wrap it once and so on. If you use my truck suggestion, you don't have this luxury, because just wrapping around the going 180 degrees around the ball give means that you have to hold the rope for virtually 100% of the tugging force. Wrap around 540 degree and you can hold with much less force, but any further and you take a VERY strong chance that the rope will twist up or bin up on itself and no longer slip around the ball. Once this happens, you have no control and 1 foot of truck movement could equal 1 foot of conduit pulled out of the ground.

I've read many of your posts, and see the pride you take in "doing it right".

Would this not be a code violation?


(as I have memories of my brother pulling out 500's (maybe 250's, was along time ago), some 300' from a pole to a school.....tide to a little Nissan pick up truck........running full speed at the school, back wheels flying off the ground a
couple of feet as the rope became taught..........He convinced me to let him use the 1 ton van as that's what is was made for ( :blink: ).........it ripped the bumper off........retide to a stronger part of the truck......and eventually
got them out..............what a day )

Where in the NEC does it tell us how to pull conductors?

Iwire has the part about using a truck with low gears correct. If you have 4x4 with low range put it in low range low gear. You should not even need to use accelerator in most cases as it will be able to pull pretty hard just with low gearing.

You do need a sheave to change direction of the rope when pulling with a vehicle. Unless you can drive your vehicle straight up into the air.

If you use the method of taking a run with a vehicle and let the rope suddenly tighten... you are simply an idiot. Not only do you risk damage to installed equipment, conductors, vehicle, you are asking for someone to get hurt. Say you do pull the bumper off the truck, what kind of force may it have behind it when it comes flying back toward the raceway you are pulling from. The only way to pull is with a slow but steady pulling speed. If you have to resort to taking a run at it there is a problem and you likely damage conductors at the very least.

 

[ritelec]

If you use the method of taking a run with a vehicle and let the rope suddenly tighten... you are simply an idiot.

You know my brother?



Yep the conductors where in there for years and had to be removed.......they weren't budging.........he did get them out however.....and yes, I wanted nothing to do with it.
It was reckless.

 

[ritelec]

Where in the NEC does it tell us how to pull conductors?

I had thought there was something about it in wiring methods..........really thought that, and pulling with fork lifts and alike was a no no.

Again.....I looked and looked....... I couldn't locate what I "thought" was there (however I did find Vic Morrow's head)...... I will continue looking ...........

Sorry Fulthrotl...............thought it was unacceptable.


Could it have been in the code when the book was small?

 

[kwired]

I had thought there was something about it in wiring methods..........really thought that, and pulling with fork lifts and alike was a no no.

Again.....I looked and looked....... I couldn't locate what I "thought" was there (however I did find Vic Morrow's head)...... I will continue looking ...........

Sorry Fulthrotl...............thought it was unacceptable.


Could it have been in the code when the book was small?

The only thing I can find is to protect the conductors from abrasion in 300.15(C). Which is not really even what we are talking about. Nothing on acceptable methods for installing conductors in a raceway.

Now 300.18(A) says raceways shall be complete prior to installation of conductors. This one I have violated many times. Being a 1 or 2 man show it makes it possible to install long underground runs if you lay the conductor out and slide the raceway onto it one or two pieces at a time. I usually only do this with PVC, risk of damaging conuctors is usually not that great. It turns a possible 4-6 man pull into something 1 man can do by himself.

 

[ritelec]

The only thing I can find is to protect the conductors from abrasion in 300.15(C). Which is not really even what we are talking about. Nothing on acceptable methods for installing conductors in a raceway.

Now 300.18(A) says raceways shall be complete prior to installation of conductors. This one I have violated many times.

yes......I keep running into those also.....checked requirements for electrical installations..... 2002...1996.....looking for an 88 or 89.............
doubt I'm going to find there either..........

Thanks kwired............and again apologize Fultrotl.........................

One good thing about this new found knowledge.......if I'm ever in the market for a puller, I just might opt for getting a vehicle or forklift instead.

 

[stevenje]

I am going to recommend avoiding the truck method if you can.

Unless you have a truck with some real low gears it is very tough to go slow enough to be safe for the guys feeding without beating the crap out of the truck.

Yes, it can be done but in my opinion is a last resort method.

Agreed. Be careful if you decide to use a truck. I worked for a cheap contractor that refused to rent or buy a tugger when it was really necessary to do the job correctly and safely. On one pull using a truck, the rope snapped and hit one of the journeyman in the face. It broke his glasses and split his lip wide open. It took a few stitches to close up his lip at the ER and was lucky he didn't loose an eye. If at all possible, rent a tugger.

 

[ritelec]

Agreed. Be careful if you decide to use a truck. I worked for a cheap contractor that refused to rent or buy a tugger when it was really necessary to do the job correctly and safely. On one pull using a truck, the rope snapped and hit one of the journeyman in the face. It broke his glasses and split his lip wide open. It took a few stitches to close up his lip at the ER and was lucky he didn't loose an eye. If at all possible, rent a tugger.

Sorry to hear of the mishap.

????? Would you think it was because he was pulling with a truck, or because it was the wrong rope ?????

 

[mkgrady]

Sorry to hear of the mishap.

????? Would you think it was because he was pulling with a truck, or because it was the wrong rope ?????

Most likely the pull rope was either worn or there was too much friction at some point on the cable or on the rope itself. I have seen many pulls where the rope was scraping against a sharp surface because a pulley was not used

 

[ritelec]

Before that, as a 1st year apprentice, we had a real big pull that required back to back tuggers.

This caught my eye before..........how do you configure back to back pullers?


Are you actually running the rope through one puller then running through the next.

And your able to control the way the rope tightens up on both pullers?

Or do you use one puller pulling the rope from one end and the other pushing the rope from the other end???????:blink:



Really.......was it set up as first described? I never had the pleasure of having to do that.

 

[Strathead]

I am going to recommend avoiding the truck method if you can.

Unless you have a truck with some real low gears it is very tough to go slow enough to be safe for the guys feeding without beating the crap out of the truck.

Yes, it can be done but in my opinion is a last resort method.

Iwire, didn't you see what I wrote about using the hitch as a capstan for this exact purpose? I will not dispute that it is not the first resort.

 

[220/221]

I'd pull out the existing wires one at a time.

I'd attach a rope to the last one, tape a rag on in a cone shaped mandrel configuration and preload the conduit ahead of it with a quart of good (not clear) wire lube.

I'd suggest a tugger because you have complete control over it. All kinds of equipment can be used but, especially in a situation where I didn't install the conduit myself, I'd want to really be able to feel whats going on.

I'd also have a disclaimer in my contract re: being able to use the existing conduit. You never know for sure what is going on underground.

 

[Rock Crusher]

Out of all the posts I read, not one mentioned that when pulling through any kind of PVC, you need to be aware of the 90's. I've always used rigid 90's on all of my underground PVC runs. The rope, wire, or whatever will burn through PVC on long pulls; especially if there is alot of tension. If it was a prior installation, and not by you (as it seems), the mandrel idea is a good one. It will let you know the condition of the conduit and if it might need to be fixed or replaced. Lube is always a good idea with long pulls, especially with big wire. Anyone that has ever been on a wire pulling crew or even pulled big wire over long distances, with even one 90, knows the importance and value of lube. The time saved alone will make it worth while.
Now the suggestion of a truck. Dumb idea. Not only could you, and probably will damage the truck; and incure repair costs, but if someone gets hurt from doing it improperly. Where is the savings of not renting a tugger. As someone posted earlier, the JW got hurt and needed stitches. At what point does the safety of the crew, or even one person, supercede the small cost of renting a tugger.
I truly believe that some people, and/or companies, get sooooo caught up in the dollar signs and wanting to save money (ie. cut corners), that they inevitably forget safety and their fellow man.
Anyway, that's my take on it.

Good luck with it.

 

[kwired]

Out of all the posts I read, not one mentioned that when pulling through any kind of PVC, you need to be aware of the 90's. I've always used rigid 90's on all of my underground PVC runs. The rope, wire, or whatever will burn through PVC on long pulls; especially if there is alot of tension. If it was a prior installation, and not by you (as it seems), the mandrel idea is a good one. It will let you know the condition of the conduit and if it might need to be fixed or replaced. Lube is always a good idea with long pulls, especially with big wire. Anyone that has ever been on a wire pulling crew or even pulled big wire over long distances, with even one 90, knows the importance and value of lube. The time saved alone will make it worth while.
Now the suggestion of a truck. Dumb idea. Not only could you, and probably will damage the truck; and incure repair costs, but if someone gets hurt from doing it improperly. Where is the savings of not renting a tugger. As someone posted earlier, the JW got hurt and needed stitches. At what point does the safety of the crew, or even one person, supercede the small cost of renting a tugger.
I truly believe that some people, and/or companies, get sooooo caught up in the dollar signs and wanting to save money (ie. cut corners), that they inevitably forget safety and their fellow man.
Anyway, that's my take on it.

Good luck with it.

If I tie the rope to my trailer hitch, the rope better break before there is damage to the truck, if not I better quit towing my 14,000# rated trailer. Out here in boonies I don't even know where to rent a tugger from, probably a three hour drive to someplace that would rent one.

 

[ritelec]

I'd pull out the existing wires one at a time.

I'd attach a rope to the last one, tape a rag on in a cone shaped mandrel configuration and preload the conduit ahead of it with a quart of good (not clear) wire lube.

I'd suggest a tugger because you have complete control over it. All kinds of equipment can be used but, especially in a situation where I didn't install the conduit myself, I'd want to really be able to feel whats going on.

I'd also have a disclaimer in my contract re: being able to use the existing conduit. You never know for sure what is going on underground.

I'd hire an electrician...............first I'd shop around for the cheapest, then ask for the cheapest to do better for me...........:rotflmao:

 

[ritelec]

Out of all the posts I read, not one mentioned that when pulling through any kind of PVC, you need to be aware of the 90's. I've always used rigid 90's on all of my underground PVC runs. The rope, wire, or whatever will burn through PVC on long pulls;

That's a very great point!

I've never run into that (knocking on wood) but I gave a hand in a pull ..............4" PVC up to and on a roof, came back down (90) into the building.............The rope cut right the 90....... went from horizontal run to the perpendicular
"as the crow flies".

Installing rigid for 90 (I guess you mean metal) How would you ground it..............???

I'm thinking some poco laterals allow this (with no grounding) but how does the code address this ??? External grounding conductor ???

 

[busman]

Out of all the posts I read, not one mentioned that when pulling through any kind of PVC, you need to be aware of the 90's. I've always used rigid 90's on all of my underground PVC runs. The rope, wire, or whatever will burn through PVC on long pulls; especially if there is alot of tension. If it was a prior installation, and not by you (as it seems), the mandrel idea is a good one. It will let you know the condition of the conduit and if it might need to be fixed or replaced. Lube is always a good idea with long pulls, especially with big wire. Anyone that has ever been on a wire pulling crew or even pulled big wire over long distances, with even one 90, knows the importance and value of lube. The time saved alone will make it worth while.
Now the suggestion of a truck. Dumb idea. Not only could you, and probably will damage the truck; and incure repair costs, but if someone gets hurt from doing it improperly. Where is the savings of not renting a tugger. As someone posted earlier, the JW got hurt and needed stitches. At what point does the safety of the crew, or even one person, supercede the small cost of renting a tugger.
I truly believe that some people, and/or companies, get sooooo caught up in the dollar signs and wanting to save money (ie. cut corners), that they inevitably forget safety and their fellow man.
Anyway, that's my take on it.

Good luck with it.

Reading thru this, that was going to be my comment. I almost guarantee you will burn thru the PVC 90's with a 300' pull. I did it once on a 500' pull of four #10's thru 1" PVC with only two 90's. I had to dig up the end and replace the 90.

Mark

 

[John120/240]

.

Installing rigid for 90 (I guess you mean metal) How would you ground it..............???

I'm thinking some poco laterals allow this (with no grounding) but how does the code address this ??? External grounding conductor ???

Rigid 90's 18" below grade when installed as part of a PVC conduit run, where not likely to

become energized do not require bonding. Shooting from the hip here. Someone will correct me

if I am wrong.

 

[Strathead]

Reading thru this, that was going to be my comment. I almost guarantee you will burn thru the PVC 90's with a 300' pull. I did it once on a 500' pull of four #10's thru 1" PVC with only two 90's. I had to dig up the end and replace the 90.

Mark

That depends on so many factors. Rope diameter, pulling speed, tension in the conduitpulling distance, friction of the rope against the elbows. Slow pulling, large rope and someone feeding will GREATLY reduce this possiblity. Lets face it, the OP did something very smart by asking his question here. He got a lot of good input. Now he just needs to do the pull. If something goes wrong, he needs to fix it. Obviously most of us have had one or more of these issues go wrong, once or twice. So I say GO FOR IT! but don't forget to have a shovel ready!

 

[tkb]

If you are going to use a tugger then I would tie the rope or a string to one of the wires and pull them all out at once. Unless there is some rusted metal pipe, #4 should come out of a 2" OK. Next question is, how many people do you have? Are you pulling 3#2/0 and no ground or what? can you get close enough to use your truck? To save money, one time deal, you could wrap a rope around the hitch or a lumber rack one time, have one person holding the rope, one slowly moving the truck and one to two people feeding. The one wrap and a person holding gives you control if there is a problem. If you need 2 wraps, it probably won't work because the rope can bind up on itself and then you have a safety issue. Otherwise, rent the generator and go for it.

The truck is a good idea. What do you mean by the hazard of two wraps? (ps, I'm new here, just figuring out how to use the reply function).

Good idea if you want to damage the wire, conduit and get hurt.
Make sure your stupid insurance is paid up. :lol:

 

[lauraj]

Pulling tension is not referenced in the code, but it is a manufacturer's guideline. Here is an example from Southwire:

http://www.southwire.com/support/WireandCblPullingTensions.htm

I calculated for 3-#2/0 AL AA-8000 a maximum pulling tension of about 2400 lbs.