Total Lighting Control

[skorper]

I have several projects starting in San Diego California. Each PLAN states that the commercial projects require Total Lighting Controls.
I spoke with the city electrical inspector who said that I should look at the Title 24 Mandatory section. I couldn't find my answer.
My questions is-How many lighting zones are required? Is it determined by the total lighting amps (not to exceed 20AMPS per circuit)?
Should the lighting zones be determined by rooms, floors, etc.?
My local rep at CED said that each room should probably be on its own zone. ($2,500 for the controller).
The general on the job just purchased a 4-zone unit ($800 for this controller) and said to divide the 106 lights by 4 and place them into these zones. (Sounds crazy to me.)
There must be some proper guide line for this.
Can anyone advise/guide me?

 

[Pullnwire]

Sounds like a high priced T24 compliant timeclock and contactor setup to me. Usually, T24 requires some sort of auto shut off, wether its a TC of OCC sensor. THese systems can get pretty complex, with daylighting sensors and such. Contact the Engineer on the plans for details.

 

[Strathead]

I have several projects starting in San Diego California. Each PLAN states that the commercial projects require Total Lighting Controls.
I spoke with the city electrical inspector who said that I should look at the Title 24 Mandatory section. I couldn't find my answer.
My questions is-How many lighting zones are required? Is it determined by the total lighting amps (not to exceed 20AMPS per circuit)?
Should the lighting zones be determined by rooms, floors, etc.?
My local rep at CED said that each room should probably be on its own zone. ($2,500 for the controller).
The general on the job just purchased a 4-zone unit ($800 for this controller) and said to divide the 106 lights by 4 and place them into these zones. (Sounds crazy to me.)
There must be some proper guide line for this.
Can anyone advise/guide me?

Your question and the answer are analogous to someone asking how do I ground my service? The answer can be, the way you were told by the specs, or the easiest cheapest way that is allowed under NEC 250, etc. The inspcetor told you right Title 24 gives you all of the guidelines that explain the minimum lighting requirements. Thinking your specs only require the minimum. Going from memory, that is The ability to turn all lighting off automatically on a time and or daylighting schedule, and a bypass that does not allow more than two hours of lighitng without human interface. There is, much more, such as dual level switching, separate controls for lights near outside windows, etc, but I think that is the lighting control requirement.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I have several projects starting in San Diego California. Each PLAN states that the commercial projects require Total Lighting Controls.
I spoke with the city electrical inspector who said that I should look at the Title 24 Mandatory section. I couldn't find my answer.
My questions is-How many lighting zones are required? Is it determined by the total lighting amps (not to exceed 20AMPS per circuit)?
Should the lighting zones be determined by rooms, floors, etc.?
My local rep at CED said that each room should probably be on its own zone. ($2,500 for the controller).
The general on the job just purchased a 4-zone unit ($800 for this controller) and said to divide the 106 lights by 4 and place them into these zones. (Sounds crazy to me.)
There must be some proper guide line for this.
Can anyone advise/guide me?

what's the engineer of record say to do?

basic title 24, depending on the occupancy would be occupancy sensors and A/B switching.
lighting zones are by rooms generally, with large areas broken up into zones.

the term is called granularity, and complex distributed systems can be granular to the
point that individual lights are a zone.

total lighting control implies a central control panel, and those aren't being used as much
as they used to be. distributed systems are more cost effective usually.

is there someone in this that is going for LEED points or something? that changes stuff a lot,
and you need to have the LEED paperwork approved before work is done, or no credit.

is daylight harvesting a part of this?

it's none of my business, but i'd have specs with approved devices before doing any of this.
the difference between some of the levels of control is substantial, and a remote control panel
has a huge effect on wiring methods, to say the least.

i pulled a CALCTP certificate last year, and it was 50 hours of class study on this stuff....
send me a PM if ya wanna chat about it.

 

[skorper]

The engineer was the person who created the plans. Not an electrical engineer. The ONLY designations on the lighting plan was a rectangle symbol that says "TLC" and a note saying that a "total lighting control system must be used." NO more information than that. He says to ask the AHJ and the AHJ says to read Title 24 Mandatory Requirements.

Each room does have A/B occupancy sensors.

The premise has about 106 lights. They are divided into 3 categories-Rooms, Hallways, and Cleaning Lights.
The general wants each of the three zones placed on its individual zone on the 4-zone Intermatic Timer. (! zone not to be used.)
Each zone IS protected by a 20AMP breaker.
IF the light bulbs are selected carefully, each zone will be under the 20AMPS.

With no definitive input from the AHJ or the plans person, this may have to do.

How does this sound to you?

 

[ritelec]

Each zone IS protected by a 20AMP breaker.
IF the light bulbs are selected carefully, each zone will be under the 20AMPS.

Isn't there something about rating the circuit to the lighting fixture???

Or is there a "qualified person" exemption to that also?

 

[tkb]

The engineer was the person who created the plans. Not an electrical engineer. The ONLY designations on the lighting plan was a rectangle symbol that says "TLC" and a note saying that a "total lighting control system must be used." NO more information than that. He says to ask the AHJ and the AHJ says to read Title 24 Mandatory Requirements.

Each room does have A/B occupancy sensors.

The premise has about 106 lights. They are divided into 3 categories-Rooms, Hallways, and Cleaning Lights.
The general wants each of the three zones placed on its individual zone on the 4-zone Intermatic Timer. (! zone not to be used.)
Each zone IS protected by a 20AMP breaker.
IF the light bulbs are selected carefully, each zone will be under the 20AMPS.

With no definitive input from the AHJ or the plans person, this may have to do.

How does this sound to you?

So it the "just do it" mentality.
They want to give a vague scope and then will complain after the job is done.
They want free engineering.

 

[ritelec]

So it the "just do it" mentality.
They want to give a vague scope and then will complain after the job is done.
They want free engineering.

:thumbsup:

 

[scott thompson]

Zones per T24, Part 6 - chapter 5

Zones per T24, Part 6 - chapter 5

The defined Zone sizes are:
5,000 Sq. Ft. for Offices, etc., = a single Zone Parameter,
20,000 Sq. Ft. for Industrial Warehouses, Malls, Atria, etc. = a single Zone Parameter.

For typical Office layouts with (2) Floors, the Auto Shutoff w/ 2 hour Override "Zone" would be up to 5,000 S.F. on each Floor.
Example:
2 Story Bank: Retail Branch on 1st Floor, Loan Center on 2nd Floor.
1st Floor area = 6,500 S.F., of which;
a1: 4,500 S.F. is the Branch / Operations / Platform area - "Customer areas",
b1: Remaining 2,000 S.F. is the Branch Staff areas - such as the Vault, Day Cash Room, Break Room, Storage and Supply Rooms, etc.

2nd Floor Loan Center area = 4,500 S.F., consisting of:
a2: 3,500 S.F. open Office task area (Steel Case Workstations),
b2: 1,000 S.F. of individual enclosed Offices.

1st Floor has (2) Zones - "a1" and "b1".
Auto Shut-Off w/ manual 2 hour override would be best option for the "a1" Zone.
Zone "b1" would be better controlled with Occupancy Sensors per Room / Task Area, and would not require the Zone Controlled Auto Shut-Off Timeswitch setup like Zone "a1".

2nd Floor also has (2) Zones - "a2" and "b2".
Similar to Zone "a1", Zone "a2" would be best controlled via Timeswitch controlled Auto Shut-Off w/ manual 2 hour override setup.
The individual Offices, which comprise Zone "b2" would be better controlled with Occupancy Sensors per Room. These would be the typical P.I.R. 2 Relay Wallswitch type Motion Detectors in smaller Rooms, and ceiling mount Occupancy Sensors + Power Packs in larger areas - such as Break Rooms and Conference Rooms.
These listed areas will still require Bi-Level Lighting Controls ("a/b" switching), as well as Daylight controls.

Per the Timeswitch Auto Shut-Off controlled Zone areas, the manual 2 hour override function is what the relevance of the Zone is aimed at.
The override switch is for after hours usage - such as Cleaning Crews or Staff entering and exiting the areas after the Auto Shut-Off has "swept through" and turned off all the General Lighting. The consept is to only illuminate a certain area after the automatic lighting shutoff mode has been enabled. The override will last for a maximum of 2 hours. After the override time function ends, the system returns back to original "Off Mode".

Total number of Lumenaires and/or Lighting Circuits do not determine a Zone; only area of override - as viewable from the override switch location - is the determining factor of given Zones.

Auto Shut-Off requirements may be met via use of Occupancy Sensors, Timeswitch / Overrides, or a combination of both control methods.

This should help define Zones and ways to control given Zones / Areas.

Contact me if you have additional questions per this issue.

-- Scott (EE)

 

[skorper]

Finite information.
This is GREAT!!

Let me read this over tonight and digest it.

I also need to find a copy of title 24. (I need to show the general.)

Thank you VERY MUCH for this info.

GREAT JOB!!!

 

[scott thompson]

skorper;

Glad to be of assistance with the Zone scenarios / descriptions!:thumbsup:

I also need to find a copy of title 24. (I need to show the general.)

The current Version is 2008, which may be Downloaded from the California Energy Commission's website

CEC Title 24 Part 6

Look for the 2008 Non-Residential Compliance Manual, along with the Forms and Appendices.

-- Scott (EE)