insulated grounding conductor in hottub installation

[liquidtite]

last week we had a hottub install witch something came up witch didnt make any sense to me. the boss said that the inspector might give us a hard time about exiting the house with romex he said we would need to use an insulated ground so instead of runing 6awg romex thru the foundation and coming out the back of an fs box so we could run pvc to the box outside i had to pipe thru the foundation put a box in a chase and it was more difficult has anyone come across this befor i cant see why their would be a problem with penitrating the house with a bare grounding conductor

 

[iwire]

The boss is very likely correct.

680.25(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be
installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding
terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding
terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a
separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders
covered in 680.25(A), exception, or (2) feeders to separate
buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding
conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment
grounding conductor shall be insulated.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I disagree with the boss. Article 680.42(C) states the copper conductor can be insulated or enclosed within the sheath. I guess one could argue that passing thru to the disconnect is outside the house but I have never heard of anyone getting cited for that. From the disconnect to the tub is a different story. I would not want an extra splice in the ground wire as your boss is proposing.

FWIW the title of that section is from interior to outdoor installation so IMO the disconnect is the point of connection.

 

[kwired]

680.42(C)

(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

The NM cable with a bare ground is permitted for the interior portion of the circuit.

Also back in 334.10 it tells us NM cable if to be used in normally dry locations.

So the question is and has been debated on this forum many times is whether or not that transition point is allowed in a box on the exterior. I think most places will let it be on the exterior as long as the NM cable immediately enters the structure behind the box, but some places they may not allow that. Check with AHJ.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If that is not allowed then every exterior panel would need to have some other method other than NM when it enters the panel. A panel is not a raceway in terms of quoting 300.9

 

[kwired]

If that is not allowed then every exterior panel would need to have some other method other than NM when it enters the panel. A panel is not a raceway in terms of quoting 300.9

Every time this is debated those kind of things are presented as validation for allowing NM to enter the back of an exterior mounted enclosure. That and air conditioner disconnects are about most common application mentioned. I think most agree it is permitted to bring NM into the back of an enclosure, if the circuit continues beyond that enclosure then it must be a wiring method permitted for wet locations.

 

[infinity]

Every time this is debated those kind of things are presented as validation for allowing NM to enter the back of an exterior mounted enclosure. That and air conditioner disconnects are about most common application mentioned. I think most agree it is permitted to bring NM into the back of an enclosure, if the circuit continues beyond that enclosure then it must be a wiring method permitted for wet locations.

I agree and given the number of years we've been debating this could someone please write a proposal to end the arguments once and for all? :roll:

 

[liquidtite]

I thought this was only a problem regarding installing hottubs and pools that they whant the conductor to be insulated weve never came across this in other instals with nm coming in the back of a box from in side to outside

 

[kwired]

I thought this was only i problem regarding to snstailling hottubs and pools that they whant the conductor to be insulated weve never came across this in other instals with nm coming in the back of a box from in side to outside

The only difference with the hot tubs is the requirement for an insulated equipment ground, but for single family dwellings you can have uninsulated for the interior portion of the circuit. Otherwise NM is not allowed outdoors anyway.

 

[iwire]

Can someone fill me in on why 680.42(C) does not apply?

He was talking about 6AWG which sounds kind of like a feeder.

 

[infinity]

Can someone fill me in on why 680.42(C) does not apply?

He was talking about 6AWG which sounds kind of like a feeder.

I think that a 2p, 50 amp, #6 AWG branch circuit for a hot tub might not out of the ordinary.

 

[iwire]

I think that a 2p, 50 amp, #6 AWG branch circuit for a hot tub might not out of the ordinary.

I don't wire these things but isn't there OCP out at the tub? :?

 

[infinity]

I don't wire these things but isn't there OCP out at the tub? :?

So you're angling for the branch circuit vs. feeder argument?

 

[acrwc10]

I don't wire these things but isn't there OCP out at the tub? :?

could just be a pull out type disco.

 

[iwire]

So you're angling for the branch circuit vs. feeder argument?

Not angling for anything, just asking some questions. I have not had to wire a packaged hot tub for more than 20 years.

 

[kwired]

I don't wire these things but isn't there OCP out at the tub? :?

Wouln't have to be, all that is required is a disconnecting means. OCP and GFCI protection could be back at the panel where the circuit originates. It is most common to have the GFCI and disconnecting means as the same device - which usually makes the portion ahead of that technically a feeder.

 

[kwired]

I have not had to wire a packaged hot tub for more than 20 years.

You can probably be thankful for that. Especially when it comes to hooking up for the guys that found a way to have enough money to purchase the hot tub then think you are ripping them off with the cost to supply power to it.

 

[acrwc10]

You can probably be thankful for that. Especially when it comes to hooking up for the guys that found a way to have enough money to purchase the hot tub then think you are ripping them off with the cost to supply power to it.

Amen! they buy a 50amp tub and have a 30amp service.

 

[liquidtite]

the ocp is a 50I 2pole in the mdp.#6awg is feeding the outside subpanel witch has a 30I 2polegfi and a 2pole gfi 20I the subpanel acts as the disconect and the ocp the 30I is for the motor i forgot what the 20 amp is for

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I always pipe my circuit either under the house or outside, if possible, mostly because many tubs call for a full size egc. This is not really possible with NM. However, I see no reason why nm cannot be run under the house to a disco at the outside regardless if it is a feeder or a branch circuit. IMO, 680.42(C) totally applies here.