One tenant space, two services.

[Npstewart]

We have an existing tenant space with a 200A service and the tenant that is occupying the space wants to keep the existing service to the space to feed the existing lights/hvac. The power company is going to install a new service drop to a 400A disconnect which will be used to supplement the tenant space and feed the additional equipment. The new service drop and disconnect will be installed right next to the existing service so for all intensive purposes there is really only one service to the building and we will have less than (6) disconnects for the building as a whole.

I am worried that there will be a problem though with having two separate feeds to our tenant space now. I can't think of any immediate code violation because the code doesn't really address tenant spaces. Can anyone think of a violation here? Should I provide signage within the tenant space? Most electricians would probably find a disconnect for that tenant shut it off and assume that ALL the power is off to perform repairs when it isn't.

Thanks!

 

[iwire]

Not that unusual around here, I did a Tommy Hilfiger store that took over three spaces so it has three services to it each with it's own meter.

The Fire Department likes us to permanently mark the service disconnects 1 of 3, 2 of 3, 3 of 3. etc.

 

[Npstewart]

Do you mark anything inside for the panels?

 

[Strathead]

Not that unusual around here, I did a Tommy Hilfiger store that took over three spaces so it has three services to it each with it's own meter.

The Fire Department likes us to permanently mark the service disconnects 1 of 3, 2 of 3, 3 of 3. etc.

What about article 230.2? This only allows one service per building or structure. As explained to me, the tennant demising wall (usually at least a 2 hour wall, often a 4 hour wall) creates the separate building or structure. So if a Hifiger did not have the demising wall ratings maintained, it was a clear violation of the code.

 

[Open Neutral]

Isn't separate service for an elevator pretty common?
Eons ago, it was DC service to same.

 

[Npstewart]

What about article 230.2? This only allows one service per building or structure. As explained to me, the tennant demising wall (usually at least a 2 hour wall, often a 4 hour wall) creates the separate building or structure. So if a Hifiger did not have the demising wall ratings maintained, it was a clear violation of the code.

A 4 hour fire wall makes the space a separate structure with respect to the rest of the building.

4 hour walls are extremely uncommon and are usually only required if the space is a very high hazard, or sometimes it depends on the adjacent space.

2 hour walls are common but most of the time with these business occupancies they are only 1 hour.

 

[iwire]

Do you mark anything inside for the panels?

We did, but I cannot remember what we put on them.

 

[iwire]

What about article 230.2? This only allows one service per building or structure. As explained to me, the tennant demising wall (usually at least a 2 hour wall, often a 4 hour wall) creates the separate building or structure. So if a Hifiger did not have the demising wall ratings maintained, it was a clear violation of the code.

OK, to clear it up a bit.

The building has one NEC service, with one service disconnecting means, that is located outside on the rear of the building.

At that location is an outdoor modular metering section with about 16 to 20 meters supplying the units in the strip mall with feeders.

To the NEC this is one 'service' to the power company it is multiple services as each has a meter.

But regardless of it being a feeder or a service the rules are pretty much the same regarding numbers of services or feeders.


The NEC restricts us to one service or feeder unless .... and then there is a lot of reasons why we can exceed that.

I. General
230.2 Number of Services. A building or other structure
served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted
in 230.2(A) through (D). For the purpose of 230.40,
Exception No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors,
1/0 AWG and larger, running to the same location and connected
together at their supply end but not connected together
at their load end shall be considered to be supplying
one service.
(A) Special Conditions. Additional services shall be permitted
to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(6) Systems designed for connection to multiple sources of
supply for the purpose of enhanced reliability
(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional
services shall be permitted for either of the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no available
space for service equipment accessible to all occupants
(2) A single building or other structure sufficiently large to
make two or more services necessary
(C) Capacity Requirements. Additional services shall be
permitted under any of the following:
(1) Where the capacity requirements are in excess of 2000
amperes at a supply voltage of 600 volts or less
(2) Where the load requirements of a single-phase installation
are greater than the serving agency normally supplies
through one service
(3) By special permission
(D) Different Characteristics. Additional services shall
be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases,
or for different uses, such as for different rate schedules.

 

[Strathead]

OK, to clear it up a bit.

The building has one NEC service, with one service disconnecting means, that is located outside on the rear of the building.

At that location is an outdoor modular metering section with about 16 to 20 meters supplying the units in the strip mall with feeders.

To the NEC this is one 'service' to the power company it is multiple services as each has a meter.

But regardless of it being a feeder or a service the rules are pretty much the same regarding numbers of services or feeders.

I had not heard this interpretation before, so I looked in the 2011 NEC. The definition of a Service and subsequently Service equipment in chapter 1 leads me to believe that 2 meter equals two services since a meter is service equipment and a service is "The conductors and equipmentfor delivering..." If I read your comment correctly, you disagree with this. If I am wrong, how?

 

[kwired]

What about article 230.2? This only allows one service per building or structure. As explained to me, the tennant demising wall (usually at least a 2 hour wall, often a 4 hour wall) creates the separate building or structure. So if a Hifiger did not have the demising wall ratings maintained, it was a clear violation of the code.

OK, to clear it up a bit.

The building has one NEC service, with one service disconnecting means, that is located outside on the rear of the building.

At that location is an outdoor modular metering section with about 16 to 20 meters supplying the units in the strip mall with feeders.

To the NEC this is one 'service' to the power company it is multiple services as each has a meter.

But regardless of it being a feeder or a service the rules are pretty much the same regarding numbers of services or feeders.


The NEC restricts us to one service or feeder unless .... and then there is a lot of reasons why we can exceed that.

I. General
230.2 Number of Services. A building or other structure
served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted
in 230.2(A) through (D). For the purpose of 230.40,
Exception No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors,
1/0 AWG and larger, running to the same location and connected
together at their supply end but not connected together
at their load end shall be considered to be supplying
one service.
(A) Special Conditions. Additional services shall be permitted
to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(6) Systems designed for connection to multiple sources of
supply for the purpose of enhanced reliability
(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional
services shall be permitted for either of the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no available
space for service equipment accessible to all occupants
(2) A single building or other structure sufficiently large to
make two or more services necessary
(C) Capacity Requirements. Additional services shall be
permitted under any of the following:
(1) Where the capacity requirements are in excess of 2000
amperes at a supply voltage of 600 volts or less
(2) Where the load requirements of a single-phase installation
are greater than the serving agency normally supplies
through one service
(3) By special permission
(D) Different Characteristics. Additional services shall
be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases,
or for different uses, such as for different rate schedules.

I had not heard this interpretation before, so I looked in the 2011 NEC. The definition of a Service and subsequently Service equipment in chapter 1 leads me to believe that 2 meter equals two services since a meter is service equipment and a service is "The conductors and equipmentfor delivering..." If I read your comment correctly, you disagree with this. If I am wrong, how?

If the service hits one place on the building - has up to six mains with overcurrent devices (with additional exceptions like a fire pump) then that is the service. You can place hundreds of meters and feeders beyond that point and they are feeders not services. Equipment grounding and meter sockets can present conflicts but is an equipment grounding problem and not a service vs feeder problem.

Multiple occupancy buildings can be permitted to be supplied by more than one service. Often the building codes require them to have firewalls between occupancies effectively making them separate buildings anyway.

If one occupant takes three spaces and has no separation making them effective separate buildings they can still feed that with how many feeders they wish, but can only supply them with one service. If it is an art 225 separate building then it still can only have one feeder.

One service is supplied by one service drop or one service lateral. There can be paralled conductors in the drop or lateral, as well as service entrance conductors, and there can also be six separate sets of service entrance conductors supplying the allowed six service disconnecting means grouped in one location.

 

[Strathead]

If the service hits one place on the building - has up to six mains with overcurrent devices (with additional exceptions like a fire pump) then that is the service. You can place hundreds of meters and feeders beyond that point and they are feeders not services. Equipment grounding and meter sockets can present conflicts but is an equipment grounding problem and not a service vs feeder problem.

Multiple occupancy buildings can be permitted to be supplied by more than one service. Often the building codes require them to have firewalls between occupancies effectively making them separate buildings anyway.

If one occupant takes three spaces and has no separation making them effective separate buildings they can still feed that with how many feeders they wish, but can only supply them with one service. If it is an art 225 separate building then it still can only have one feeder.

One service is supplied by one service drop or one service lateral. There can be paralled conductors in the drop or lateral, as well as service entrance conductors, and there can also be six separate sets of service entrance conductors supplying the allowed six service disconnecting means grouped in one location.

Took me a bit of looking, but now I see the correctness of your response. I though a meter was service equipment, but I see that it is specifically excluded in 230.66

Thank you. PS that is why I come here daily.

 

[rattus]

Long Term Cost

Long Term Cost

I would be concerned that having separate services might cause the POCO bills to be higher than with one service.

As a youngster, working for a rate audit firm, we suggested to our clients that they should combine services. Of course one has to consider the cost of changing over to one service to see if it is worth it.

 

[kwired]

I would be concerned that having separate services might cause the POCO bills to be higher than with one service.

As a youngster, working for a rate audit firm, we suggested to our clients that they should combine services. Of course one has to consider the cost of changing over to one service to see if it is worth it.

Energy charges should remain the same as long as on same rate schedule, with exception of tiered rate levels such as first xxx kWrh at yyy rate, next xxx at yyy, and all additional kWhr at yyy. Then you are not getting to the next tier as quickly as you would with a single meter. Other than that you typically do pay minimum charges per meter every month no matter how much energy is used.

 

[rattus]

Energy charges should remain the same as long as on same rate schedule, with exception of tiered rate levels such as first xxx kWrh at yyy rate, next xxx at yyy, and all additional kWhr at yyy. Then you are not getting to the next tier as quickly as you would with a single meter. Other than that you typically do pay minimum charges per meter every month no matter how much energy is used.

These were tiered rate schedules, starting higher and getting lower as usage increased--something like 2 cents per kwh. Don't know if anyone took our advice though.