Alabama incentives on Solar.

[KP2]

Hello all, I am working on a lighting project in Alabama and the facility consumes about 62MW per year. They are interested in putting solar panels in an adjacent farm owed by the facility and would like to put the panels in the fields. They are approxamitly 1 mile from point to point. Can they tie into the grid at the farm and meter the generation to credit the facility or do we need to plan on trenching.

Thanks
Kevin

 

[K8MHZ]

Hello all, I am working on a lighting project in Alabama and the facility consumes about 62MW per year. They are interested in putting solar panels in an adjacent farm owed by the facility and would like to put the panels in the fields. They are approxamitly 1 mile from point to point. Can they tie into the grid at the farm and meter the generation to credit the facility or do we need to plan on trenching.

Thanks
Kevin

That would be a question to ask the power company. They own the grid and control who gets connected and where.

Consider the loss you would incur on a mile of wiring.

My guess is that they won't let you connect your PV system directly to the grid.

I am a big fan of PV, but if the closest available area for the panels is a mile away, I would strongly suggest doing some reconsideration.

Even if you had the panels at the facility and planned on doing any sort of net metering, the power company would have to grant permission, so not talking to them is really not an option.

 

[KP2]

That is definitely something I will be looking into. I don't like the idea of it but they really seem to have a strong desire to utilize the property. Meanwhile they have ample rooftop 5 degrees off of true south.

But thanks for the input. If anything developes I will continue to post.

Thanks
Kevin

 

[jaggedben]

Hello all, I am working on a lighting project in Alabama and the facility consumes about 62MW per year. They are interested in putting solar panels in an adjacent farm owed by the facility and would like to put the panels in the fields. They are approxamitly 1 mile from point to point. Can they tie into the grid at the farm and meter the generation to credit the facility or do we need to plan on trenching.

Thanks
Kevin

I assume you mean 62 MW hours per year. If so, you're looking at ~47 kW of solar to offset that kind of usage. Which would require ~3600 sq feet of panel array surface, or a 60'x60' sq array if done flush to the roof. This does not seem like something worth trenching a mile for, to say the least.

(Now if you meant the facility uses 62 MW on average, that would be very, very different.)

 

[KP2]

I assume you mean 62 MW hours per year. If so, you're looking at ~47 kW of solar to offset that kind of usage. Which would require ~3600 sq feet of panel array surface, or a 60'x60' sq array if done flush to the roof. This does not seem like something worth trenching a mile for, to say the least.

(Now if you meant the facility uses 62 MW on average, that would be very, very different.)

You are right, it is an average.

Thanks for catching that.

 

[K8MHZ]

You are right, it is an average.

Thanks for catching that.

62 MW average????

That sounds like a bunch. Like enough to run a small city.

Just for fun, I wanted to see how many 3 x 5 panels it would take for a single megawatt. Using 240 watt panels, that would be 4,167 panels. Just for a MAX of one megawatt.

Then you have to adjust for insolation to get an average.

I think the largest array in the world is around 10 MW.

So, is there a problem with using the roof of the facility to be powered as the location of the array?

I really don't think you are going to get the POCO to allow a load less grid tie. You probably will somehow have to be physically wired to the load you are trying to offset.

 

[ggunn]

Hello all, I am working on a lighting project in Alabama and the facility consumes about 62MW per year. They are interested in putting solar panels in an adjacent farm owed by the facility and would like to put the panels in the fields. They are approxamitly 1 mile from point to point. Can they tie into the grid at the farm and meter the generation to credit the facility or do we need to plan on trenching.

Thanks
Kevin

Most (if not all) AHJ's require that the PV connect to the grid at the same point as the revenue meter for a customer to get net metering. If the run from the inverter(s) to interconnect would be a mile, it will be impractical; the wire run will cost more than the PV.

 

[ggunn]

You are right, it is an average.

Thanks for catching that.

Average what? Does the facility use an average of 62 MWh/year, or does the power consumption average 62MW steady state? "62 MW/year" makes no sense.

As others have said, an average power consumption of 62MW is a colossally HUGE load (62MW X 24 hr/day X 365 days/year = 543,120 MWH/year, which would cost something on the order of 50 million dollars/year), so I'll assume that you mean 62MWh/year, which would require a system of about 48kW to offset their electric bill 100%. I don't know of any way to place a 48kW system a mile away from an interconnection point that makes any sort of economic sense.

 

[KP2]

Average what? Does the facility use an average of 62 MWh/year, or does the power consumption average 62MW steady state? "62 MW/year" makes no sense.

As others have said, an average power consumption of 62MW is a colossally HUGE load (62MW X 24 hr/day X 365 days/year = 543,120 MWH/year, which would cost something on the order of 50 million dollars/year), so I'll assume that you mean 62MWh/year, which would require a system of about 48kW to offset their electric bill 100%. I don't know of any way to place a 48kW system a mile away from an interconnection point that makes any sort of economic sense.

I know this sounds huge, that's partly why I made the mistake initially and wrote per year.

This is a small sample of just the lighting load in one of the smaller buildings.

118 - 1000 watt HPS
53 -400 watt HPS

118 X 1000 X 1.15(BF) = 135,700
53 X 400 X 1.15 = 24380

Total = 160,080 va per hour.

The senior EE of the facility estimates the lighting load of the entire facility to be less than 10%.

This building is one of 20 or so, we only had an hour to take a tour and counted the lighting in just one area for now.

So, yes this is huge.

Sorry to have muddied the waters in the beginning.

 

[BillK-AZ]

Looks like you could benefit from a large PV system, but......

1. A quick review of utility incentives for Alabama (see link next line):
http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/index.cfm?getRE=1?re=undefined&ee=1&spv=0&st=0&srp=1&state=AL
indicates a maximum PV system size of only 50 KW (for incentives) and a Performance-Based Incentive of only $0.12/kWh assuming TVA (only listed Utility).
A drop in the bucket for your situation.

2. For your plant you likely connect to the utility at 12,470V. You can connect at the service voltage or any suitable point at lower voltages. At higher voltages, distance is less of a problem, but you will need an inverter and a suitable transformer, as a start. Needs a full A&E firm to organize. A transmission line is expensive, but possible. When part of a PV system, this can be included in the cost for the Federal investment tax rebates.

3. The utility will have to study the impact of your PV system on their distribution system and may limit the maximum back feed. They may not have much experience with this.

4. Many states have utility rules that allow only a regulated utility to transmit electric power over property lines. A major problem with using nearby land that is not the same parcel. Again, your utility will know the rules that apply. I have several electric service manuals from utilities, but they do not mention this requirement.

For many of the Alabama utilities there seem to be efficiency programs that will help pay for high efficiency lighting retrofits. Also covered by dsireusa.org.

 

[jaggedben]

The numbers still aren't clear...but just for some perspective...

62MW of average power would require something like 400MW of PV to offset. This is roughly equal to 22% of all the solar PV installed in the US last year, and is on par with the largest projects that are being done in the western deserts.

 

[K8MHZ]

The numbers still aren't clear...but just for some perspective...

62MW of average power would require something like 400MW of PV to offset. This is roughly equal to 22% of all the solar PV installed in the US last year, and is on par with the largest projects that are being done in the western deserts.

And cost how much?

Even at a very conservative 3 bucks per watt, that would be over a BILLION dollar system.

 

[KP2]

The numbers still aren't clear...but just for some perspective...

62MW of average power would require something like 400MW of PV to offset. This is roughly equal to 22% of all the solar PV installed in the US last year, and is on par with the largest projects that are being done in the western deserts.

We are just in the planning stages at this time. As mentioned in the beginning, we are hoping to get the project to upgrade the lighting and save some energy first. As we dive deeper into the project I will have more info, but for know my real concern as many have noted is the tie into the facility.

I thought the idea of using the farm land is a difficult way to go, and the additional cost would not be beneficial.


I would like to see us utilize the roofs on the various buildings and keep the runs as short as possible. Then we can expand and spread the cost out over a period of time.

 

[iceworm]

... I thought the idea of using the farm land is a difficult way to go, and the additional cost would not be beneficial. ...

KP2 -
As noted, it is a billion dollar job. Did you do any kind of cost analysis to determine the validity of this statement? There are many valid reasons why 400MW power plants are located far from the end users and connected with a distribution system.

... I would like to see us utilize the roofs on the various buildings and keep the runs as short as possible. Then we can expand and spread the cost out over a period of time.

"keep the runs as short as possible" - interesting concept. The project is ~400MW. This is more power than some states produce. Somehow I don't see "keep the runs as short as possible" as a top level concern. I'd guess the minimum transmission voltage at 138KV, maybe even 345KV - maybe even an HVDC link. I'd guess the first questions are how much space will we need? Where do we have it available?

As for expanding and spreading the cost over time, well, the up-front engineering bill is in the $100Million range. I don't know how one sneaks up on that.

One interesting thing about projects of this magnitude is that they literally buy the entire output of the earth, for selected material, for months. I don't know how one sneaks up on that either.

But no matter what, it is one hell of a project - right up there with the Golden Gate Bridge or the Trans-Alaska Pipeline. Should be interesting beyond all belief.

If it goes, give me a call. I'll come sweep floors just to be around it.

ice

 

[jaggedben]

for [now] my real concern as many have noted is the tie into the facility.

I think that the tie in isn't really the primary concern. You are talking about a project that will have to be separately negotiated with the utility on many, many details, and would almost certainly end up on its own dedicated connection anyway.

I think the first steps, if you want to build that much solar, is to look for a utility scale solar developer and some lawyers.

I thought the idea of using the farm land is a difficult way to go, and the additional cost would not be beneficial.

At first I would have thought so, too, but when you get to the multi-MW scale, the 'additional' cost probably starts to become a less prominent factor, and other factors will rise in prominence. For example, what is the 'additional' cost of trying to distribute the system on many different rooftops? It will be a complicated analysis with the devil in the details.

 

[97catintenn]

The utility that allows net metering per kw at the same price that you are paying for their kw, is assuming a small system. Once you have a farm generating power and charging the power company for the energy, you will be treated as a power company and will be paid whole sale price per kw. Which is going to be about half price. 5-6cents per kw.

 

[BillK-AZ]

Judging from the size of the load, all of the PV output will be consumed at the plant and will be worth full retail.

In the rare instance of an actual backfeed, the power is worth much less.

 

[97catintenn]

Right, but with the plant being a mile away, I was thinking of selling the juice to the poco.

 

[iceworm]

Right, but with the plant being a mile away, I was thinking of selling the juice to the poco.

For this size of a plant, a mile is closer than next door. 62MW for a year is $50 million a year. Why would you sell it to the POCO for half what it costs?

Maybe there is more to the story

ice

 

[K8MHZ]

For this size of a plant, a mile is closer than next door. 62MW for a year is $50 million a year. Why would you sell it to the POCO for half what it costs?

Maybe there is more to the story

ice

Plus the POCO may only decide to pay 2 or 3 cents per kWh and if people don't like it, tough. They certainly aren't going to pay what the customer pays, not by a long shot. The ONLY way that happens is via net metering where the POCO isn't really buying your power, you are making your own and using your own. To do that, you need the PV system connected to the customer's loads.