Relay protection of MV motor without having motor damage curve

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philly

Senior Member
Typically when I have set motor protection relays in the past I have set the relay curve to be below the hot and cold rotor damage curves (or rotor stall point) of the motor provided on the motor datasheets. I now several motors which I do not have the motor datasheets and am wondering what to use in order to set the motor protection relay.

I believe I saw somewhere that a typical damage point for the rotor is 6 x FLA for 10 sec but I'm not sure if that is standard or not. Does anyone know a standard damage point to use for a motor on a TCC in order to set the motor protection relay?
 

wiigelec

Member
Location
Red Desert
Your MPR could/should have a learned parameters function that will tell you starting time and current. You could use those values to set your overload curve so you can allow the motor to start and maximize coordination with upstream devices...
 
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philly

Senior Member
Your MPR could/should have a learned parameters function that will tell you starting time and current. You could use those values to set your overload curve so you can allow the motor to start and maximize coordination with upstream devices...

Yes I understand that the realy has learned parameters that can be used.

In this case however I'm in a consulting role where I need to provide relay settings for a motor to be set in the field in order to adequately protect the motor. In order to set this realy with only knowing the FLA of the motor I am wondering what to base the settings off of.
 

wiigelec

Member
Location
Red Desert
SKM (which I use)(and I presume other related software) has built in starting curves for motors which can be used to coordinate with the applicable MPR. Perhaps you have access to one of these...
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
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Location
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Electrical Engineer
The 2 main reasons why MPRs provide detailed protection curves is because of
1) custom or unusual motor designs for specific purposes, which gets more and more prevalent as HP size goes above NEMA frames (loosely over 250HP), and
2) when you need to push your motor application right to the ragged edge but for economic or technical reasons, you don't want to just buy a bigger motor.

If that seems to fit your situation, you have no viable choice but to contact the motor mfr or have an Engineer do a very detailed motor analysis. As mentioned, software programs like SKM and ETAP are tools the EE will use, but they still rely upon knowing something about the thermal damage curve of the motor, and that is very difficult to determine on an existing motor with no mfrs data. The built-in starting curves in those software programs are mostly what I describe below (they are available everywhere) but these high end software companies also amass some typical values by soliciting curve data from various installations submitted by users, so that can be helpful too if you don't know much about your motor. SKM and ETAP are very expensive programs, not usually justifiable for the one-off user, typically around $5-7k (plus training). Its usually far less expensive to just hire an experienced EE that has the software already. If however one of those two reasons don't seem to fit your situation, read on.

Generally there are standards set by NEMA for North American design motors and IEC for elsewhere and they establish curve "classes", NEMA & IEC classes are pretty much the same. They are all based upon the thermal damage curve that will be associated with a trip time at 600% current because that is the accepted average Locked Rotor Current of a Design B motor, which makes up 95% of AC industrial motors used. So Class 10 means it will trip in 10 seconds at 600% FLC, Class 20 in 20 seconds, Class 30 in 30 seconds etc. These cover the thermal damage curves of 95% of AC motors out there. Class 30 is rare, what we used to call "Mill Duty" motors and you will know one when you see one, they are often twice as big as you would expect. Most NEMA frame motors are going to be designed around Class 20, most IEC motors are designed around Class 10. ESPs (Electric Submersible Pumps) are also usually Class 10 (but some are Class 5 because they know they are in warm or hot environments, like oil pumps, so be careful with those). If you select a Class 10 curve, you are generally very safe in protecting your motor even though you may not be utilizing its full capability. But if you are not experiencing nuisance tripping, then there is no down side to using Class 10 as a default position.
 

MSU

Member
Location
Hattiesburg, MS
I rarely see a General Purpose MV motor with less than a Class 10 rating. It is, however, possible.

A better question in my mind is the starts per hour rating. Most larger machines (>500HP) are rated for 2 back to back starts from cold, or one from hot, with a 20 minute revolving rest period between subsequent starts (assuming rated load inertia).

The motor manufacturer should be able to shed light on the subject.

As mentioned above, the (squirrel cage machine) rotor is usually the weak point thermally, but I have seen Stator limited machines. Don't assume that because the Stator heat rise is low (by RTD indication) that the machine is in no peril. The rotor could be red hot.
 
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