10 foot tap rule
- Thread starter j9DuBois
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jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
The main feed is a tap and you want to tap it?
- Location
- Massachusetts
First thing we need to know is what you are planing to connect to and then we can figure out if the tap rules even apply.
Are you connecting to service conductors or a feeder?
What size wires would you be connecting too?
If it is a feeder what size breaker or fuse is protecting it?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
I have no idea what a tap main is. Can you explain it?
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
tap rule
tap rule
ok, more info.
Nothing yet exists.
There is a main ( I don't know what athe ampacity is) So from what Info I could gather one panel is going to be 225 amps and then the other is going to be tapped off of the first one also at 225 amps. I think we would go with 4/0, (foreman says 3/0) from the main and then the tap would have what size wire? the same?
Could someone exlain what "the rating of the oc device on the line side of the tap conductors shall not exceed 10 times the ampacity of the tap conductor" mean...?does it mean that whatever we tap off the 225 needs to be 22.5 amps or larger?
thanks.
tap rule
ok, more info.
Nothing yet exists.
There is a main ( I don't know what athe ampacity is) So from what Info I could gather one panel is going to be 225 amps and then the other is going to be tapped off of the first one also at 225 amps. I think we would go with 4/0, (foreman says 3/0) from the main and then the tap would have what size wire? the same?
Could someone exlain what "the rating of the oc device on the line side of the tap conductors shall not exceed 10 times the ampacity of the tap conductor" mean...?does it mean that whatever we tap off the 225 needs to be 22.5 amps or larger?
thanks.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
OK, I am still confused. Let’s start here: You say that nothing yet exists, but I infer that there does exist some upstream panel that will be feeding the two new panels you have been discussing. Within that upstream panel, there will be a breaker that will serve the first of your two new panels. What is that breaker’s rating? Next, what is the ampacity of the wire from that breaker to the first panel? If I were designing this setup, my answers to those two questions would be, 225 amps, and 4/0, in that order.
Part of my confusion is that I think you are using the word “tap” as though it meant the same thing as “connect a wire to.” It does not. Rather, it means something like "connect a smaller wire to a bigger wire." Specifically, when you connect a new wire to an existing wire, you only call it a “tap” if the ampacity of the second wire is lower than the trip rating of the breaker that is protecting the first wire. In other words, if in your situation you have a 225 amp breaker that is protecting a 4/0 wire that serves the first 225 amp panel, and if you connect another 4/0 wire from the first panel to the second panel, then you do not have a “tap” situation. The second wire would be adequately protected by the 225 amp breaker.
Now, if you wanted to use a smaller wire than 4/0 from the first panel to the second panel, that smaller wire would not be adequately protected by the upstream 225 amp breaker. You are allowed to do that if you follow the tap rules in 240.21. But you are feeding a 225 amp panel, so why would you want to feed it with a wire that does not have the full 225 amp ampacity?
Part of my confusion is that I think you are using the word “tap” as though it meant the same thing as “connect a wire to.” It does not. Rather, it means something like "connect a smaller wire to a bigger wire." Specifically, when you connect a new wire to an existing wire, you only call it a “tap” if the ampacity of the second wire is lower than the trip rating of the breaker that is protecting the first wire. In other words, if in your situation you have a 225 amp breaker that is protecting a 4/0 wire that serves the first 225 amp panel, and if you connect another 4/0 wire from the first panel to the second panel, then you do not have a “tap” situation. The second wire would be adequately protected by the 225 amp breaker.
Now, if you wanted to use a smaller wire than 4/0 from the first panel to the second panel, that smaller wire would not be adequately protected by the upstream 225 amp breaker. You are allowed to do that if you follow the tap rules in 240.21. But you are feeding a 225 amp panel, so why would you want to feed it with a wire that does not have the full 225 amp ampacity?
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
The foreman is wrong. That is, unless the foreman can produce a calculation that shows that the load is no higher than 200 amps (i.e., the ampacity of a 3/0), then you need a 4/0 to serve the 225 amp panel.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
If the feeder and all of the panels are rated for 225 amps you wouldn't even need a tap, the tap rule or a main OCPD in the panels. Just use #4/0 for each panel.
Speaking of "tap" rule
Speaking of "tap" rule
This is what I looked at today .....Commercial building - 9th Fl -mech room with 400A rated feeder in 6X6" raceway (main disconnect located in the basement)....many brunch circuits extended/spliced in the same raceway. ..three CBPs tapped to the same feeders...
Entire floor supplied by this setup to be re-wired 100% (22 rooms - psycho-therapy center )
Their (owner's) idea is to replace there small CBPs with one 200A/ 4W 42CRTs, clean all other disconnects timers etc. reconnect 200A-3Ph disco for AC.
What do you think ? any input greatly appreciated....
Thanks.
Speaking of "tap" rule
This is what I looked at today .....Commercial building - 9th Fl -mech room with 400A rated feeder in 6X6" raceway (main disconnect located in the basement)....many brunch circuits extended/spliced in the same raceway. ..three CBPs tapped to the same feeders...
Entire floor supplied by this setup to be re-wired 100% (22 rooms - psycho-therapy center )
Their (owner's) idea is to replace there small CBPs with one 200A/ 4W 42CRTs, clean all other disconnects timers etc. reconnect 200A-3Ph disco for AC.
What do you think ? any input greatly appreciated....
Thanks.
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mike7330
Senior Member
- Location
- North America
Can you meet the clearances between the new panels and the duct work, looks tight?
As other said, your info is a bit lacking.
The idea of taps is the the wires can be smaller under certain conditions and length because it'as assumed they'll be protected by the protection behind them (not ahead of them, as with normal OCPD)
For instance, 200A feed, #3/0 wire in a gutter, I tap two, 100A panels 6-8 feet with #3. Perfectly code compliant, the 200A wire is protected by the 200A OCPD ahead, and the #3 are protected behind by the OCPD in the 100A panel. Keep in mind you DO NEED a MB if you do this.
The idea of taps is the the wires can be smaller under certain conditions and length because it'as assumed they'll be protected by the protection behind them (not ahead of them, as with normal OCPD)
For instance, 200A feed, #3/0 wire in a gutter, I tap two, 100A panels 6-8 feet with #3. Perfectly code compliant, the 200A wire is protected by the 200A OCPD ahead, and the #3 are protected behind by the OCPD in the 100A panel. Keep in mind you DO NEED a MB if you do this.
The wall to the left (with entry door) will be moved back 2 feet - this is where new 42crts panel would be placed.
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