Stuck between a rock and AFCI's

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Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
hope this is the right forum, looking at the management side ( should be "headache and stress" )
i have a good GC been doing his work, well, for quite a few years
he is starting a new tract site about 360 lots out in the county, here county has no inspections, none, zip .... tried to get it changed, didnt happen

anyway got a call from him today, he doesnt want ANY AFCI's in his new area, he said "since we will be in the county, city codes wont apply"
yes we have some to very little trouble with AFCI's
i told him "it's not a code issue per say, its a liability concern"

i want to continue doing his work, just not sure i can without doing it to code

any thoughts, comments? Thanks
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
What code cycle is the nearest county under?

2nd, If the mentioned county doesn't follow any code cycle, then i don't see how AFCI can be enforced?
Analogy would be, if there is no limit, then who will be enforcing a speed limit?

just my 2.5 cents worth.
 
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John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
Yes I think most of us have had our share of AFCI problems. Is it a appliance problem

or a AFCI breaker problem ? Maybe the technology has not caught up with the NEC.

Consult with your insurance carrier & get their opinon on the issue. How long have we had AFCI's ?

10 years maybe ? Does the insurance industry have any data that would prove there

effectiveness ?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
What code cycle is the nearest county under?

2nd, If the mentioned county doesn't follow any code cycle, then i don't see how AFCI can be enforced?
Analogy would be, if there is no limit, then who will be enforcing a speed limit?

just my 2.5 cents worth.

It would be very unlikely that the NEC does not apply, they may not have enforcement but it is still likely adopted.
 

Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
yes, county has adopted codes, normally about a year after the city ... just no enforcement, as iwire stated

yes, Kansas is different, seems the father west you travel, the older the code cycle:
Topeka 2011, Manhattan used to be 2008 (2009) International, I believe they have adopted the 2011 now
Junction City use to be 2002, i think they are up to 2011 also

sorry was stalling while my secretary (wife) looked up county code cycle :angel:

County appears to be 2006 IBC
all the county cares about is getting its permit fees
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
guess what i was looking for is ... how would you handle this, no AFCI's or say its code i need to install them

Ask your GC if there is any codes he wants you to follow. Just because there is no inspection taking place doesn't mean you will be exempted from any lawsuits if any negligence is found on your part. By following a recognized standard (especially something like NEC) you have an awful lot of people on your side if you followed that standard.

I know nothing about Kansas electrical codes - is there a Statewide jurisdiction? Exemption from permits and inspections can be possible but if there is a statewide jurisdiction whatever licensing requirements and codes they have adopted should still be what you use just to CYA.

Here there are installations that do not require permits to be filed. State laws still says (currently adoptededition) NEC applies and state licensing requirements apply to all installations by the way the licensing wording is written. Written something similar to this: No person shall plan, lay out, or install electrical wiring for another person unless they are a qualified electrical license holder, or work for qualified license holder -not exact wording but gets the main point across somehow it is written to allow licensed journeymen to do work if they are operating for a licensed contractor and allows for apprentices to perform work if properly supervised and registered.

If you don't have any similar wording you will be totally underbid by non licensed people if they have no one enforcing any codes or standards, and as a professional if you want to stoop to those standards your professional career may not last long. Someday when codes are adopted in those areas you will be ahead of competition as you will know just what is going on.

In a way this is no different than buying a car. A lot of cost in a new automobile is because of standards the automaker is required to follow whether they want to or not. Both safety and emmissions and maybe even other standards you have no choice on - you either get them with the auto or good luck finding someone to build you same auto without those features, unfortunately it is easier to start a small construction or electrical contracting business than it is to start a small business selling custom made automobiles. I bet even those that do custom make anything that is road legal still has to meet many standards or it will not be road legal.
 

Sparky555

Senior Member
For liability IMO the choice is between the NEC adopted by the AHJ OR the most recent NEC. In this case if there is no adoption by the AHJ, my quote would include everything required by the 2011 NEC.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
yes, county has adopted codes, normally about a year after the city ... just no enforcement, as iwire stated

.......

Then you need to follow latest code that they have adopted.

In my 2nd post what i wanted to know is whether or not your county has adopted ANY codes cycles.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
If AFCIs are in the NEC but the NEC does not apply to that community what would the GC's liability be should there be an incident that was prevent to have been prevented by an AFCI? It may get a little sticky for the GC to defend himseft in court. Just cover your own butt by getting it in writing. With no AHJ who then is liable for a safe installation? What rules do you play by then?
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Liability

Liability

That is the only word I can use to stress the question in this thread.

Ok I'm going to start with the fact that Indiana has removed 210.12 from our code book, so we here do have an out, that removal by our legislation put the ball back into their court as far as liability for us here.

With that said no where in state of Indiana can I "not use" the requirements set forth by Indiana adopted requirements set into law, even if there is no inspection permits or licenses, its called self law and liability is what rules it.

The first thing I would do is find out what is required at state level, county level and or local level if such applies, then let this be your guide as to how you perform your job, anything less is opening yourself up to a liability that can even cause you to be charged criminally if you do something with the intent to avoid the extra cost of doing it safely, a good insurance lawyer will eat you up in court and it is not something you ever want to go through, I have sat in on a few cases and one of them was for a company I worked for, we beat some of it but it still cost the company's insurance thousands of dollars in the end and higher premium insurance cost, all because one of our guys didn't do his home work and map out the circuits he was using and didn't realize they were double fed from two breakers on the same phase, and it caused a fire, lucky no one was hurt or killed but the house was a total loss, not at first but after a second fire which we proved was a second non-associated fire not cause by the first, this limited our liability to just the damage cause by the first fire, but it doesn't matter there should have been no fire!!! if that person had done his home work.

Well there it is, this is what you need to determine if doing this work will cause you to put your company and or you in jeopardy if a fire were to happen and someone is hurt of killed and your state or county requires AFCI's and a sharp insurance lawyer could use this against you in a court of law?

We need to think this way when we are doing our work, we are in a trade that when we don't follow the rules people can be hurt or killed, and we can be held accountable and yes even criminally, we get threads on here from time to time of reports of electricians going to prison, three in Florida and one in Connecticut, Florida was over widow-maker hook up of generators after hurricane Charily, and Connecticut was where an electrician hooked up a 120 volt wall heater to 240 volts with out double checking what was sent to him.

Sorry for the rant but I try to get people to understand that there is a self governing rule of liability that each and everyone of us needs to always keep in mind in our line of work, and remember there is no such thing as signing off on liability, the judge will laugh at you if you even try to say "well the GC told me to do it" it will not matter one iota, because you are considered the person who is supposed to know better.

Edited to add:
I want you to also know that even if your behind a corporation the person doing the work can be liable and can be sued, corporations only protects those (owners) from liability of their workers from someone coming after the owners personal assets but the worker who did the unsafe work is open to liability, both civil and criminally this can vary from state to state but if you don't put yourself in a situation like this you wont have to worry.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Thank you, all who replied

Point taken, understood, and appreciated.

Your welcome

I wasn't trying to a hard about it, and I know that we may at times not always meet every little requirement of the code in all installations but as long as we have enough knowledge of electrical theory and know that somethings can come back and bite us if we don't follow the rules we must really think hard about it, the biggest thing is "Will it be safe" or is there anyway it could be used against me if it was taken to court.

Could you challenge the effectiveness of AFCI in a court of law? you might be able to, or if you get a judge who wont let you speak your side of the case because of a baby who died in a fire, he is already disposition against you, and since the NEC, state or local jurisdiction thought it was a good idea to require the AFCI, so you should have installed them, so you might not even get a chance to show they don't work or they would have not mattered anyway.

I get asked to do things that don't meet code often, and I always use the liability card every time and assertively tell them that in no way will I jeopardies my livelihood and risk going to jail so that person can save a few dollars, it is just not worth it, I don't gamble on something so important, that not only will cost me, but the fact could cost someone else a child or loved one, even what it can do to my own family, even though I don't feel AFCI's are nothing much more then a glorified GFP and even that has been removed in combination types, but still if it is required in your state, or local, it should be installed.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Wayne put it correctly but the bottom line is the GC doesn't want to pay extra for the AFCI's.

he doesnt want ANY AFCI's in his new area, he said "since we will be in the county, city codes wont apply"

He is like ever other GC that is doing large track homes. The cheaper he can do them and the more he can beat the subs down the more $$$ in his pocket.
He wants you to disregard what the code calls for under the guise of "codes wont apply" since you do not have inspections. He wants you to carry the burden of a code violation so he can line his pockets.
 

Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
found something, if you wouldn't mind looking at, as far as i can tell Shawnee, Kansas does not have building code
hope it doesnt take up too much space

edward made me look;)

[h=1]Planning Department: Permitting: Home[/h][h=2]Overview[/h]
Permitting is a specific functional area of the Planning Department. Permit activities include building permits (i.e. structures, fences, signs, etc.), demolition permits, home use occupation permits, temporary fireworks stand permits, and, haunted house permits.Although Shawnee County does not have an adopted building code, the building permit process is designed to assure that all construction is compliant with the requirements of the Shawnee County Zoning Regulations, Shawnee County Subdivision Regulations, Shawnee County Floodplain Regulations and other adopted county rules and regulations. Through the building permit process, it is the intent of the County to assure orderly, planned, efficient and economical development of the county; that property can be used safely; that adequate public facilities and improvements exist; and, that improvements comply with all applicable rules and regulations of the County. In addition, it is the goal of the department to assure that all projects are treated with fairness and accuracy, are processed in a timely manner, and, are compliant with applicable adopted county rules and regulations. It is hoped that through this section you will be able to locate and obtain necessary information, instructions and forms related to all the permit processes administered by the Planning Department.The Zoning Administrator and Permit Specialist work in concert to process, evaluate and issue the various permit types administered by the Planning Department.
 

Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
instead of editing ... the only electrical topic i could (ok my wife) find was on Smoke detectors, hard wired .. battery back-up .. every floor .. audible alarm in bedrooms with doors
 
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