Stuck between a rock and AFCI's

[templdl]

Wayne put it correctly but the bottom line is the GC doesn't want to pay extra for the AFCI's.



He is like ever other GC that is doing large track homes. The cheaper he can do them and the more he can beat the subs down the more $$$ in his pocket.
He wants you to disregard what the code calls for under the guise of "codes wont apply" since you do not have inspections. He wants you to carry the burden of a code violation so he can line his pockets.

So the EC does the install W/O AFCIs per the GC and there is an incident do to the lack of AFCIs. The EC knowingly did the install w/o AFCIs who is liable? They are going to hall everybody into court.

 

[hurk27]

Well I'm as about stumped as a person could get, but I did go to your state web site and found a PDF listing of all county requirements and Shawnee county just doesn't have any building codes at all???

Of course the state has requirements for all state own buildings and some Eco codes for commercial, but this has me stumped as to this county not having anything required to follow???
Here is the PDF of County code requirements and look at Shawnee

I would call you insurance or an insurance company and ask them what could be a liability to your work and what could be challenged in court? or maybe even a lawyer? I would or should I say thouhgt that almost all states would have something requiring you to at least follow some kind of base minium code?

 

[mjf]

Paper trail, paper trail, paper trail

Paper trail, paper trail, paper trail

You've already spent some time (and time is money) trying to track down the legalities and liabilities of whether or not to install the AFCI's. If you spend much more time, and especially if you do decide to ask a lawyer, you might as well just install the AFCI's out of your own pocket ....would probably cost you less:lol:.

Seriously though, 360 homes isn't a job you want to pass on, so get something from the county, your insurance company, and your lawyer in black and white with signatures on it (maybe even notorized) on file covering your butt.

 

[readydave8]

I'd like to say I'd do it without AFCI's since requirement is relatively recent and many doubt their usefullness, but once I start picking and choosing, where does it end? Why use GFCI's? Why junction boxes, I can tape up my splices real good? So if I choose which requirements to comply with and which to ignore, I'm taking on all the responsibility and liability. Times 360.

 

[Gac66610]

Well I'm as about stumped as a person could get, but I did go to your state web site and found a PDF listing of all county requirements and Shawnee county just doesn't have any building codes at all???

Of course the state has requirements for all state own buildings and some Eco codes for commercial, but this has me stumped as to this county not having anything required to follow???
Here is the PDF of County code requirements and look at Shawnee

I would call you insurance or an insurance company and ask them what could be a liability to your work and what could be challenged in court? or maybe even a lawyer? I would or should I say thouhgt that almost all states would have something requiring you to at least follow some kind of base minium code?

And we apparently are not the only ones, Leavenworth county:blink:

So the EC does the install W/O AFCIs per the GC and there is an incident do to the lack of AFCIs. The EC knowingly did the install w/o AFCIs who is liable? They are going to hall everybody into court.

Agreed, and I don't want to end up in Leavenworth State Penitentiary:happysad:

You've already spent some time (and time is money) trying to track down the legalities and liabilities of whether or not to install the AFCI's. If you spend much more time, and especially if you do decide to ask a lawyer, you might as well just install the AFCI's out of your own pocket ....would probably cost you less:lol:.

Seriously though, 360 homes isn't a job you want to pass on, so get something from the county, your insurance company, and your lawyer in black and white with signatures on it (maybe even notorized) on file covering your butt.

And last night was "date" night:ashamed: I called and talked to my mentor (dad) he suggested the same notarized statement, the question was how to ask for one without upsetting GC, I know for a fact that another EC has talked to my GC:rant:

I'd like to say I'd do it without AFCI's since requirement is relatively recent and many doubt their usefullness, but once I start picking and choosing, where does it end? Why use GFCI's? Why junction boxes, I can tape up my splices real good? So if I choose which requirements to comply with and which to ignore, I'm taking on all the responsibility and liability. Times 360.

yeah one receptacle in every room, pull chains in clothes closets the list could go on
AFCI are new but so were GFCI years ago with troubles but we muttled through and eventually GFCI have become the easier side of things

Thanks again
I have some phone calls to make, I love my wife, just not sure she could convey the questions correctly

 

[Ponchik]

360 homes x 5 AFCI each x $50 each = totals $90,000

that is a lot of money that is saved. But then again...........

 

[kwired]

Well I'm as about stumped as a person could get, but I did go to your state web site and found a PDF listing of all county requirements and Shawnee county just doesn't have any building codes at all???

Of course the state has requirements for all state own buildings and some Eco codes for commercial, but this has me stumped as to this county not having anything required to follow???
Here is the PDF of County code requirements and look at Shawnee

I would call you insurance or an insurance company and ask them what could be a liability to your work and what could be challenged in court? or maybe even a lawyer? I would or should I say thouhgt that almost all states would have something requiring you to at least follow some kind of base minium code?

That is part of why I asked if there is a statewide AHJ that would have a code that would apply - even if it does not require permit or inspection whatever code they have adopted would likely be what is challenged in a court case if it came to that. That is likely the way it would be here for something involving an install that did not require permit or inspection.

360 homes x 5 AFCI each x $50 each = totals $90,000

that is a lot of money that is saved. But then again...........

For 360 homes I would probably get a quote for all the breakers, panels, meter sockets, anything else needed made by same manufacturer and those $50.00 AFCI's may end up only costing $15-25 each. Any standard single pole breakers will practically be given away compared to normal cost. If you don't want all 360 homes at once get 10 or 15 at a time and you likely still get similar pricing, throw in materials for other current jobs at the time and get a break on those also.

 

[Gac66610]

That is part of why I asked if there is a statewide AHJ that would have a code that would apply - even if it does not require permit or inspection whatever code they have adopted would likely be what is challenged in a court case if it came to that. That is likely the way it would be here for something involving an install that did not require permit or inspection.

I am looking, and will be calling tomorrow about this

For 360 homes I would probably get a quote for all the breakers, panels, meter sockets, anything else needed made by same manufacturer and those $50.00 AFCI's may end up only costing $15-25 each. Any standard single pole breakers will practically be given away compared to normal cost. If you don't want all 360 homes at once get 10 or 15 at a time and you likely still get similar pricing, throw in materials for other current jobs at the time and get a break on those also.

Its not the cost of the breakers, I already buy them 40 at a time with no breaks in price, its too many call backs on them
trouble shooting is not easy, i have some "guide lines"(found online for trouble shooting) i look for and follow, but some times nothing makes sense
had one ... went to look at it, tripped EVER time we turned on everything with approx 4a total load
went back a few days later same setup everything on approx. 4a load never tripped, went home got a call an hour later ... it tripped:rant:

 

[ramsy]

here county has no inspections, none, zip .... tried to get it changed, didnt happen

GC wants to skip fire/life/safety equipment. Without permit enforcement GC can exploit any unlicensed, undocumented, untraceable, illegal to do anything he wants. If he's shopping brick-&-mortal EC's with social security #'s he wants a fall guy. Low ball without liability is a win-win for GC.

Entrapment is also a law enforcement tactic. For example, if law enforcement directed you to accept, or perhaps counter offer with conditions of untraceable cash payments & fictitious aliases, then evidence for criminal prosecution of GC is unavoidable.

If GC is deliberately cognizant of shifting liability away from himself, he will not touch untraceable or fictitious subcontractors.

 

[renosteinke]

OK, maybe you're dealing with a super sly guy, who is scheming to destroy you in some convoluted way.

OR ... it's just the usual GC, who only understands cheap, cheaper, cheapest. I suspect all he cares about is the price, and won't be out there looking at the details. When he sad 'no AFCI's, he meant 'price it using normal breakers.'

So... price the job using AFCI's, and just give him the price. If he objects later, tell him to let you handle any call-backs.

 

[cdslotz]

Why don't you just run 1-50A circuit down the center of the attics and T-tap all lighting and receptacles off of that?
Just think how much savings you could pass along to him. As long as it's all about the GC picking up savings to go in HIS POCKET.

Right?

 

[Gac66610]

first i would like to say kwired nailed it, thank you, there is a minimum state code for counties without codes
2006 IBC
i went to a ICC forum and looked around, it appears that the electrical side is about the same as 2005 NEC atleast regarding AFCI's
all 15 and 20 amp 120v bedroom outlets only ... if i use #12 NM for the outlets, and say i have a four bedroom house i could conceivably get by with 2 AFCI breakers
i believe i can talk GC in to that

now in regard to those saying its all about profit ... who doesnt look at the bottom line, and wonder "where can i save more"
i, personally, am always looking for the lowest price on material probably why i buy wire from Lowes or Home Depot not whole sellers
we have a Menard's opening soon cant wait to see their prices:thumbsup:

 

[texie]

first i would like to say kwired nailed it, thank you, there is a minimum state code for counties without codes
2006 IBC
i went to a ICC forum and looked around, it appears that the electrical side is about the same as 2005 NEC atleast regarding AFCI's
all 15 and 20 amp 120v bedroom outlets only ... if i use #12 NM for the outlets, and say i have a four bedroom house i could conceivably get by with 2 AFCI breakers
i believe i can talk GC in to that

now in regard to those saying its all about profit ... who doesnt look at the bottom line, and wonder "where can i save more"
i, personally, am always looking for the lowest price on material probably why i buy wire from Lowes or Home Depot not whole sellers
we have a Menard's opening soon cant wait to see their prices:thumbsup:

If the AFCI requirement is similar to NEC 2005, sure would be nice if you could get the old style AFCI's that were cheaper and maybe less prone to false trips. I have to admit though that I'm in the camp that thinks AFCI's are a scam anyway. But the code is the code.
I would agree with kwired that regardless if there are inspections or a local AHJ, if there is a state or county minimum code applicable, you need to adhere to that.

 

[HoosierSparky]

Everyone has an opinion about AFCI's. The best advice I can give is look at the code data on the front of the plans. The version of the codes utilized by the jurisdiction should be listed and that is what you go by.

We follow the 2005 NEC and the 2006 IRC. We allow newer versions of the codes to be used, but it has to be for the entire job. We do not allow you to "cherry pick" between code cycles for what may work better for you. You pick one and stick with it.

 

[Gac66610]

If the AFCI requirement is similar to NEC 2005, sure would be nice if you could get the old style AFCI's that were cheaper and maybe less prone to false trips. I have to admit though that I'm in the camp that thinks AFCI's are a scam anyway. But the code is the code.
I would agree with kwired that regardless if there are inspections or a local AHJ, if there is a state or county minimum code applicable, you need to adhere to that.

i believe that the newer combination AFCI were required in the 2005 NEC, not sure about IBC
i have yet to call my insurance provider to see if they have any documentation stating that AFCI's are proven effective, may end up calling a few other insurance company s also

 

[Gac66610]

Everyone has an opinion about AFCI's. The best advice I can give is look at the code data on the front of the plans. The version of the codes utilized by the jurisdiction should be listed and that is what you go by.

We follow the 2005 NEC and the 2006 IRC. We allow newer versions of the codes to be used, but it has to be for the entire job. We do not allow you to "cherry pick" between code cycles for what may work better for you. You pick one and stick with it.

plans? ... blueprints? ... i have heard of these mysterious things, never had any :happyno:

 

[kwired]

The best advice I can give is look at the code data on the front of the plans. The version of the codes utilized by the jurisdiction should be listed and that is what you go by.

If I understand the situation the OP is in I would guess you will be looking for a very long time to find code data on plans. Might even be looking a long time for any plans other than maybe some simple floor layout plans.

 

[hurk27]

Well sounds like here, we only see plans on commercial.

 

[ptonsparky]

plans? ... blueprints? ... i have heard of these mysterious things, never had any :happyno:

Not to far from fact up here either. I can remember the project but not when I last used a real set of plan's.

 

[kwired]

Not to far from fact up here either. I can remember the project but not when I last used a real set of plan's.

Same here - especially for dwellings. I don't even recall doing a new home in 25+ years according to a plan that I did not come up with myself. Most all I ever get is floor layout plans, sometimes there is elevations included many times not. Often there are some modifications to what those plans originally had.

Commercial projects seems to be somewhat hit and miss. Really depends what the project is. I have done a lot of commercial stuff where I was the electrical designer also.