Another dreaded grounding question. Grounding to copper bus bar

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timaaay

Member
Location
ne, pa
Great forum with lots of helpful folks here. My question involve dissimilar metals. To make along story short, I am installing a 100' Amateur radio tower at my home. The tower will be grounded (all 3 legs) to a ground ring using 2/0 copper to the ring and 4, 5/8" X 10' groung rods. The ring will extend to my house/service ground with rods every 20 feet (60 feet to my home/service entrance).
Outside, I have a nema box that will has a 2' X 15' bus bar that will house the lightning/surge protectors (polyphaser) for 3, 7/8 hardlines and rotator cable. From this point, they will transition to LMR-400 to make the short run inside to my radios. So far so good right?
I also have a 12 inch bus bar (Harger) that will be mounted to my wall for grounding all the station equipment. (amp, power supplies, tuner, radios, etc.) That brings me to this question: I was going to use 10 gauge wire from all station equipment to the grounded bus bar. My intention was to use ring terminals to the equipment and the bus bar. They don't seem to sell copper crimp terminals for 10 gauge. I haven't been able to find any stainless steel rings either. I had ordered copper ring terminals that are tin coated.
An "expert" advised me that I can not use the tin plated ring terminals with the copper bus bar. Is this, in fact true and is 10 awg THHN adequate for equipment ground? The bar will have a short run of 2/0 to the single-point ground system. Any input or assistance would be much appreciated.

Tim
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Great forum with lots of helpful folks here. My question involve dissimilar metals. To make along story short, I am installing a 100' Amateur radio tower at my home. The tower will be grounded (all 3 legs) to a ground ring using 2/0 copper to the ring and 4, 5/8" X 10' groung rods. The ring will extend to my house/service ground with rods every 20 feet (60 feet to my home/service entrance).
Outside, I have a nema box that will has a 2' X 15' bus bar that will house the lightning/surge protectors (polyphaser) for 3, 7/8 hardlines and rotator cable. From this point, they will transition to LMR-400 to make the short run inside to my radios. So far so good right?

two feet by fifthteen feet, YOU MUST BE RICH.

I also have a 12 inch bus bar (Harger) that will be mounted to my wall for grounding all the station equipment. (amp, power supplies, tuner, radios, etc.) That brings me to this question: I was going to use 10 gauge wire from all station equipment to the grounded bus bar. My intention was to use ring terminals to the equipment and the bus bar. They don't seem to sell copper crimp terminals for 10 gauge. I haven't been able to find any stainless steel rings either. I had ordered copper ring terminals that are tin coated.
An "expert" advised me that I can not use the tin plated ring terminals with the copper bus bar. Is this, in fact true and is 10 awg THHN adequate for equipment ground? The bar will have a short run of 2/0 to the single-point ground system. Any input or assistance would be much appreciated.

Tim

I do believe he is WRONG.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Here is the whole article but #10 is rthe minimum size required. Also take note of "A" where it talks of the material to be used.

810.21 Bonding Conductors and Grounding Electrode Conductors ? Receiving Stations. Bonding conductors or grounding electrode conductors shall comply with 810.21(A) through (K).
(A) Material. The bonding conductor or grounding electrode conductor shall be of copper, aluminum, copper-clad steel, bronze, or similar corrosion-resistant material. Aluminum or copper-clad aluminum bonding conductors or grounding electrode conductors shall not be used where in direct contact with masonry or the earth or where subject to corrosive conditions. Where used outside, aluminum or copper-clad aluminum conductors shall not be installed within 450 mm (18 in.) of the earth.
(B) Insulation. Insulation on bonding conductors or grounding electrode conductors shall not be required.
(C) Supports. The bonding conductors and grounding electrode conductors shall be securely fastened in place and shall be permitted to be directly attached to the surface wired over without the use of insulating supports.
Exception: Where proper support cannot be provided, the size of the bonding conductors and grounding electrode conductors shall be increased proportionately.
(D) Mechanical Protection. The bonding conductors and grounding electrode conductor shall be protected where exposed to physical damage. Where the bonding conductor or grounding electrode conductor is run in a metal raceway, both ends of the raceway shall be bonded to the contained conductor or to the same terminal or electrode to which the conductor is connected.
(E) Run in Straight Line. The bonding conductor or grounding electrode conductor for an antenna mast or antenna discharge unit shall be run in as straight a line as practicable.
(F) Electrode. The bonding conductor or grounding electrode conductor shall be connected as required in (F)(1) through (F)(3).
(1) In Buildings or Structures with an Intersystem Bonding Termination. If the building or structure served has an intersystem bonding termination as required by 250.94, the bonding conductor shall be connected to the intersystem bonding termination.
Informational Note: See Article 100 for the definition of Intersystem Bonding Termination.
(2) In Buildings or Structures with Grounding Means.
If the building or structure served has no intersystem bonding termination, the bonding conductor or grounding electrode conductor shall be connected to the nearest accessible location on the following:
(1) The building or structure grounding electrode system as covered in 250.50
(2) The grounded interior metal water piping systems, within 1.52 m (5 ft) from its point of entrance to the building, as
covered in 250.52
(3) The power service accessible means external to the building, as covered in 250.94
(4) The nonflexible metallic power service raceway
(5) The service equipment enclosure, or
(6) The grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode conductor metal enclosures of the power service


A bonding device intended to provide a termination point for the bonding conductor (intersystem bonding) shall not interfere
with the opening of an equipment enclosure. A bonding device shall be mounted on non-removable parts. A bonding device shall not be mounted on a door or cover even if the door or cover is non-removable.
(3) In Buildings or Structures Without an Intersystem Bonding Termination or Grounding Means. If the building or structure served has no intersystem bonding termination or grounding means as described in 810.21(F)(2), the grounding electrode conductor shall be connected to an electrode as described in 250.52.
(G) Inside or Outside Building. The bonding conductor or grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run either inside or outside the building.
(H) Size. The bonding conductor or grounding electrode conductor shall not be smaller than 10 AWG copper, 8 AWG aluminum, or 17 AWG copper-clad steel or bronze.
(I) Common Ground. A single bonding conductor or grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted for both protective
and operating purposes.
(J) Bonding of Electrodes. A bonding jumper not smaller than 6 AWG copper or equivalent shall be connected between the radio and television equipment grounding electrode and the power grounding electrode system at the building or structure served where separate electrodes are used.
(K) Electrode Connection. Connections to grounding electrodes shall comply with 250.70.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
There is a great product by Burndy called Penetrox E its a copper to copper antiseeze and corrosion protection. Use it on all your bolted connections and lugs.
Often halo grounds in side buildings are 8 AWG copper....
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Hi Tim,

With a quick glance, it sounds like a great set up.

As for the #10AWG you are asking about, if this is for connecting the radio chassis, tuner, amp, etc., to ground, why aren't you using flat braid?

View attachment 6886

Crimp terms are indeed available for #10AWG if that is what you want to use.

I use flat braid rolled at the end and slipped into ring terminals followed by a good solder connection.

Did you know you can make your own flat braid? Next time you are ready to discard some coax, slide the shield off and flatten it. It works great.

If your concern is lightning protection, the outdoor conductors should be flat, too. The last 200' tower I worked on (W8SS) used 6 inch wide flat copper strap that required special electrode connectors.

View attachment 6885

Last but not least, 73 and welcome to the forum. Are you a member of QRZ.COM? There is lots of good stuff there, too, but you have to sort a little.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Here is the whole article but #10 is rthe minimum size required. Also take note of "A" where it talks of the material to be used.

Sorry, but as far as ham radio is concerned, the "whole article" starts at 810.58 and refers to other parts of the section. 810.21 is for receiving stations only.

Take note of 810.58 (C). "Operating" grounding conductors can be as small as #14AWG.
 
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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Also, for the non-ham sparkies, realize that 99 percent of all ham gear is 12.0 - 13.8 volt DC and is not directly powered by the AC mains on the premises. In fact, it may be powered by batteries and not even have a connection to the mains.

That means the NEC is likely not applicable to most ham radio stations. Good thing, too. Requiring wire (round) conductors where they may be used for lightning protection is asinine.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Tim,

I have to go out to our club house today. The power company shut the power off because (not my words) a squirrel shorted out and destroyed a transformer and they found some melted wires in the meter socket. They won't turn the power back on until the melted conductors are fixed.

Hmh.......

Anyway, I'll try to remember to get some pics of the way they use flat braid for their station.

By far, though, the best advice you can get to keep lightning from making its way into your gear is to have them connected ONLY when you are using it. As soon as you are done, disconnect both the antenna and power leads from the radio.
 

timaaay

Member
Location
ne, pa
Thanks to all

Thanks to all

Thanks for all the great info and input! I used to do electrical work but my NEC book is from 1996, glad to see nothing has changed! It's funny that some mentioned copper strap. I spoke to someone at Polyphaser who recommended copper strap for the whole job (tower legs, ring, and the run to the house), so I ordered 200' of 2" X .032" copper strap from Georgia copper. The AHJ wouldn't allow it (He said it "didn't look heavy enough to take a strike") and told me I had to use 2/0 or larger wire. :rant: So I paid to ship the strap back, luckily I hadn't opened the packages, so I was only out the shipping both ways.
It took 23 months, several battles, and more money than I wish to think about to finally get the permit for the tower. I'm glad to hear that tin plated copper is fine, it only stands to reason because, if the manufacturer is plating a copper ring with tin, there shouldn't be any dissimilar metal issues, or so I also believed. I'll be using stainless steel bolts for the ring connections.
LOL, for the bus bar I did mean 2" X 15" :ashamed1:.
Thanks again for all the help and any further comments or advice is greatly appreciated!

Tim (AA2HA)" x .032"2"
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Thanks for all the great info and input! I used to do electrical work but my NEC book is from 1996, glad to see nothing has changed! It's funny that some mentioned copper strap. I spoke to someone at Polyphaser who recommended copper strap for the whole job (tower legs, ring, and the run to the house), so I ordered 200' of 2" X .032" copper strap from Georgia copper. The AHJ wouldn't allow it (He said it "didn't look heavy enough to take a strike") and told me I had to use 2/0 or larger wire. :rant: So I paid to ship the strap back, luckily I hadn't opened the packages, so I was only out the shipping both ways.
It took 23 months, several battles, and more money than I wish to think about to finally get the permit for the tower. I'm glad to hear that tin plated copper is fine, it only stands to reason because, if the manufacturer is plating a copper ring with tin, there shouldn't be any dissimilar metal issues, or so I also believed. I'll be using stainless steel bolts for the ring connections.
LOL, for the bus bar I did mean 2" X 15" :ashamed1:.
Thanks again for all the help and any further comments or advice is greatly appreciated!

Tim (AA2HA)" x .032"2"

Polyphaser is correct, your AHJ is wrong.

2/0 is useless against a lightning strike.

If you value your equipment you need to get an engineered design for lighting protection and if the AHJ has a problem with using flat strap, take it over his head.

FWIW, I got involved with the 200 foot tower in the pic at the request of a lawyer from Harvard U. (Yes, THE Harvard University) His friend, a doctor, owns the tower and the township was giving the good doctor grief about it and threatening legal action. So the good Doc Joe calls Fred the big shot lawyer and Fred said Joe needed a Michigan State licensed electrician that held an FCC Amateur Extra class license as well to work things out, which I did.

So, I know for sure that local AHJs are in no position dictate lightning protection systems for 100 foot plus tall towers, but sometimes they act like they are, and they can make life miserable for hams putting up big towers. The truth of the matter is that the AHJ probably has neither training nor experience in lightning protection systems and thus, has no business inspecting them.

If you decide to cave in to the AHJ, make sure you have lots of insurance.

FWIW, a .030" flat strap 6 inches wide will shunt a direct lightning hit without fusing open. Do you think that the 2/0 will do the same? (Think 'skin effect').

Good luck! Your AHJ is lucky he is dealing with you and not me, that's for sure!

The AHJ wouldn't allow it (He said it "didn't look heavy enough to take a strike") and told me I had to use 2/0 or larger wire.

Code reference?

Besides Polyphaser (which is an A1 company), check out Tom W8JI's site on ham station grounding:

http://w8ji.com/station_ground.htm

You can see in the pics where he is using copper flashing and braided strap.

Remember, although lightning is technically DC, is acts like it is 100MHz AC and has a very pronounced skin effect. It also runs about 100 plus kV and 100 plus kA. A run of 2/0 subject to that will fuse open, create an arc and pose a greater risk than it supposedly is installed to mitigate. The physics of lightning and the physics of 60Hz AC mains are worlds apart and thus, the materials used in each may be worlds apart as well.

It's your choice, but if I had a 100 foot tower and was not allowed to properly protect my person and property due to the incompetence of an AHJ, fur would be flying.
 
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fmtjfw

Senior Member
The guys that really care about grounding: US Military with sensitive, critical sites

The guys that really care about grounding: US Military with sensitive, critical sites

Scrounge up TM 5-690 Grounding and Bonding in Command, Control, Communications, Computer, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (C4ISR) Facilities.

http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/ARMYCOE/COETM/tm_5_690.pdf

It's from 2002, but electricity hasn't changed that much in the intervening decade.:D
 
(He said it "didn't look heavy enough to take a strike")

Argh! That's up there with all the "I like to see it like..." inspection reports. I really don't care what you "like" to see unless you're the engineer of record or can give me a code article. This AHJ probably wouldn't know skin effect if it bit him.

(Sorry, I had a bad day with that sort of stuff recently.)
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Scrounge up TM 5-690 Grounding and Bonding in Command, Control, Communications, Computer, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (C4ISR) Facilities.

http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/ARMYCOE/COETM/tm_5_690.pdf

It's from 2002, but electricity hasn't changed that much in the intervening decade.:D

Actually, the understanding of lightning HAS changed in the last 10 years. The biggest change is that the sphere of influence, or rolling sphere of influence concept, has proven to be wrong. NFPA 780, which is a substantial part the pdf you gave us the link for, should be amended, or even re-written for that reason.

The design of the protection system for a tower will be different than that of a building. I see in the pdf that there is one instance of mention of flat conductor for grounding arresters.

Polyphaser provides protection systems for radio installations and is a very trusted company. They stay up to date and are constantly improving their products and information. I would trust them design a ham station. The government trusts them to protect their radio stations, like central dispatch. I know, I have worked on them. I also know the people that work on our areas CD, fire and police radios. I have installed radios in our mobile emergency operations center. We all trust Polyphaser more than anything.

Polyphaser has great tech notes, but they keep moving them around on their site. There is a specific section about ham radio. It's great and worth the extra time it takes to find it.
 
T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
2/0 is useless against a lightning strike.
Why you think flat conductor is better than round conductor despite permitted by codes for lightning protection? Any formula for skin effect for round conductors demonstrating their inferiority over flat conductors for lightning protection?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Why you think flat conductor is better than round conductor despite permitted by codes for lightning protection? Any formula for skin effect for round conductors demonstrating their inferiority over flat conductors for lightning protection?

Simple. Flat conductor has more surface area than round conductor. Remember, current travels on both sides of flat conductor.

I don't have a formula, but I am sure there is one.

Also, I have worked on radio installations for years. Flat conductor is what is used on every engineered lightning protection system for towers I have ever seen. If it's good enough for someone that makes their living designing LP systems, it's good enough for me.

Think of it this way. A 2 inch flat strap has as much surface area as a round conductor with a 4 inch circumference. I am just guessing that would equal about a 1 1/2 inch diameter conductor.

So. If you had to choose between a .030 x 2.00 inch strap or a 1.4 inch round conductor and they both were equally effective, which would you want to pay for and install?

Also, if you look close at engineered LP systems for communications, any round conductor used in that system is solid, not stranded. Have you ever had to work with 2AWG solid bare tinned copper? I have, it sucks. (LP system for a Verizon site). I believe that it would be physically impossible to work with any larger solid wire. The round conductor is used to bond the inside of MESA cabinets together and is always 'inside'. Towers will have flat conductor, usually 6 inches wide, from the base and electrodes to the control room.

I notice that you seem to be interested in LP systems. I don't think you understand them, though. I have been lucky enough to actually help design and build them so I have a leg up on you in that respect.

Have you taken the time to visit the Polyphaser site and go through their technical info? It's good stuff and un-like NFPA 780, it's up to date. Polyphaser has a vested interest in being correct. If they lose their untarnished reputation, it could cost them millions. They supply surge and lightning protection to our government and large corporations, along with small, single site retail sales. They even have real live people give tech support over the phone.

I just tried to find the tech info at the Polyphaser site to no avail. Sorry, as it's great stuff. They changed their site so they have less tech notes, but better person to person service.

http://www.protectiongroup.com/PolyPhaser

I did find this rather non-technical discussion that may interest you on Georgia Copper's site:

Copper strap (or strip) is the conductor of choice for low impedance RF ground connections. Due to the skin effect, RF
currents tend to flow along the outside "skin" of a conductor. Copper strap has a large, smooth surface area to take full
advantage of this effect. For decades, copper strap has been widely used in the RF ground systems of broadcast sites.
Lightning - Assuming lightning current is strictly DC, any copper conductor of similar cross-sectional area should conduct
lightning current equally well. However, research has shown that lightning is a series of DC pulses with a fast rise time.
Conductors with lowest inductive reactance and largest surface area, such as copper strap, should be strongly considered
when choosing conductors to handle the fast pulses of lightning current.
There's one great benefit of copper strap that is seldom mentioned. In a typical ground system, multiple ground rods are
driven and interconnected with bare copper wire or copper strap buried just below the surface of the soil. If copper strap is
used for this purpose, the large surface area of copper strap in contact with the soil can enhance any system of ground rods
and help lower overall ground resistance. For example, an 8-foot length of 2-inch copper strap would have just as much
surface area in contact with the soil as an 8-foot, 5/8" ground rod! And that's only considering one side of the strap!
Copper strap's greatest disadvantage is that it is slightly more difficult to install and connect than wire - for example, to go
through a wall, one simply has to drill a hole for wire and push it through. Strap requires a little more effort.

Just curious, what it the weather like where you live? Do you have frequent thunderstorms? I live in an area that has many storms each year. Just last night a line of thunderstorms came through and took out power to homes about 8 or 9 miles from here. I stood on the back porch and witnessed some of nature's fury, it's incredible. We went from no wind and no rain to a moderate amount of precipitation and 50 mph wind gusts in about 45 seconds. I would say the lightning visible as ground strikes were happening ever 30 seconds or so. In less than 15 minutes the storm was over. It's now bright and sunny just like it was yesterday, a few hours before the storm.

I have a friend that takes pictures of lightning. He's really good. He was in his van when the van got struck just as he pushed the camera shutter and got a pic of a bolt of lightning from about 6 feet away. Luckily, he wasn't hurt, but some of the van's electronics, including his ham radio, got fried. Unless you know what you are looking at, the picture looks like an out of focused mistake. Here are some of his pics. The one of his van isn't there. It lacked his usual style of capturing the beauty of the moment.

http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=650040

Those pics are all from Michigan near Lake Michigan. That is what we have to deal with when putting up towers and we have hundreds, if not thousands of towers here. I am a licensed amateur radio operator and we have ham gear in our county's emergency operations center, all the hospitals, the Red Cross, several fire stations and the county's mobile command center so I have more than a passing interest in protecting radio systems (and the schmuck holding the mike) from lightning. I have also been in two weather radar stations, one as it was being built. The weather service prides itself on being able to take direct hits to their towers and flat strap at those locations is abundant.
 
T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
I just can not believe your statement that a 2/0 conductor on a tower would be fused by lightning current. Have you seen any such happening?
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I just can not believe your statement that a 2/0 conductor on a tower would be fused by lightning current. Have you seen any such happening?

Think Positive stroke lightning, where all the current in the lightning stroke is funneled to one point of attachment to earth, where as a negative stroke is one attachment point to the cloud but multiple attachment points to earth which spreads out the current between all these points, a positive stroke was once called super lightning as it destroys most of what it hits, saw a 1300' television transmitter tower in Florida dropped by it, as well as power line towers, not much can withstand that much current.

But there have been cases of negative strokes dropping large power lines of over 2/0, very common to loose the static lines above the main phase lines from lightning, negative or positive, and boy do they send off the fire works when they come down on to the phase conductors only witnessed this once driving from Sanford, Florida to Daytona Beach on State road 415, not only did it hit the high wires but it also burned free and fell down on the local MV feeders running down the road so needless to say we had to take another route that day once county officers were on the scene to block the road.

Heres a PDF about super bolt lightning
 
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T

T.M.Haja Sahib

Guest
Sorry.

It is not convincing.

The problem is lightning has tremendous power but only limited energy due to its very short duration.

Because of it, lightning can not melt any 'thick' metal such as a 2/0 conductor.
 
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