Main-Tie-Main circulating current calculation

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rbalex

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Where did that come from?

I don't see any possible translation of 110.9 that says the main or the tie have to interupt more fault current than can be delivered.

Although, it would be unlikely that one would buy a switchboard braced for the high fault current and not buy CBs to match that.

ice
Including the contribution from both transformers and motors what would be the current at fault levels at the nominal circuit voltage and the current that is available at the line terminals of either main or tie breaker. Even if it isn't what is interrupted, it's what is available at the line terminals.
 

iceworm

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Including the contribution from both transformers and motors what would be the current at fault levels at the nominal circuit voltage and the current that is available at the line terminals of either main or tie breaker. Even if it isn't what is interrupted, it's what is available at the line terminals.
Well, for the mains, there is only 10KA available at the line terminals. For the tie there is 10KA on each side, but they two are not additive. But that is okay, I'll not pick at those.

What I will ask is a physics question.
Looking at the tie: There is a 10KA SSC from one transformer on one side and 10KA available from the other transformer. The only way there is 20KA available is if the tie CB faults internally.
The Question:
So what does a tie CB need to be rated to interupt an internal fault with 10KA delivered from each side?

The Answer:
It doesn't matter. With an internal fault the CB won't interupt anything. It just flies apart. 10KA works just as good as 20KA.
ice
 

iceworm

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... Even if it isn't what is interrupted, it's what is available at the line terminals.

Just curious: Is this a legal interpretation? Or do you have some physics to back up this idea?

The Idea is that a tie CB between two 10KA sources would have to be rated at 20KA.

ice
 

richxtlc

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Tampa Florida
The last item in the history is a valid arguement as in many of the generating stations that I have worked in using the double-ended M-T-M configuration have a one-second delay in the closing of the on coming transformer and the opening of the bus tie breaker. I know that generating station conform to the NESC, but the underlying principles are still the same. These double ended switchgear are design for this type of operation.
 

rbalex

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The last item in the history is a valid arguement as in many of the generating stations that I have worked in using the double-ended M-T-M configuration have a one-second delay in the closing of the on coming transformer and the opening of the bus tie breaker. I know that generating station conform to the NESC, but the underlying principles are still the same. These double ended switchgear are design for this type of operation.
As you may note from the "history", I'm very much in favor of permitting Secondary Selective systems to have an "underrated" interrupting duty for the duration of an automatic transfer. The transfer would not precipitate a downstream fault and the likelihood of a simultaneous downstream fault occuring durring a closed transition is negligible. Secondary Selective systems are commonly applied in many continuous process facilities, like refineries; which is why API supported it. I would have preferred wording similar to the 110.9, second paragraph to be applied. Nevertheless, the first paragraph “says what it says” and the “line side” of all breakers will see the current contribution of all sources – even if they don’t actually have to interrupt them.

In the case of the OP, it’s quite likely that the breakers have a sufficient interrupting duty, but it should be confirmed.
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
The problem is not with the sypply and tie breakers but with the Switchgear bus-withstand capability at breaker closure (force at ist cycle-peak), and interrupting duty of outgoing breakers and fuses (if used)!

Phil Corso
 

rbalex

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The problem is not with the sypply and tie breakers but with the Switchgear bus-withstand capability at breaker closure (force at ist cycle-peak), and interrupting duty of outgoing breakers and fuses (if used)!

Phil Corso
While bracing is relevant, Code Making Panel 1 (CMP1) never spoke to the issue, nor does Section 110.9; it only speaks to determining the interrupting rating of the OCP involved. Frankly however, unless a downstream fault occurs simultaneously with the closed transition, bracing should be no more a concern than the interrupting capability.
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
Rbalex... the fault-duty problem had been under discussion for quite a long time in the '60s, within the compay I was with at the time. With plants all over the word fitted with multiple Secondary-Selective and Spot-Network distribution systems the eventual conclusion was, as follows:

While possible, the situation involving coincident closure of say 'B' breaker and a 3-phase fault occuring in the secondary-bus or output circuits fed from the bus, was highly improbable, using what today is called, Probabilistic Risk Analysis, or PRA!

Regards, Phil Corso
 

jim dungar

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The problem with manual closed transition M-T-M is when some forgets to open a device thereby creating paralleled sources. The last one I saw like this had all three devices closed for as far back as anyone could remember.
 

rbalex

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The problem with manual closed transition M-T-M is when some forgets to open a device thereby creating paralleled sources. The last one I saw like this had all three devices closed for as far back as anyone could remember.
What's really scary is when they use a "key-interlock" system and all three devices have a key. My initial Proposal advocated automatic only and the second Proposal's Substantiation specifically rejected manual.
 

zog

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Location
Charlotte, NC
What's really scary is when they use a "key-interlock" system and all three devices have a key. My initial Proposal advocated automatic only and the second Proposal's Substantiation specifically rejected manual.

They are shipped that way, it is the person doing the commosioning that needs to remove the correct keys. Can't tell you how many times I came across this situation, I would always pull the right keys and give them to the plant EE to stash in his desk.

One facility I used to do a lot of work at had all of the kirk keys for the entire facility on one huge key ring, he would give the ring to his electricians and tell them to go do the switching. Had to splain' some things to that guy........
 
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