A bit of theory vs application

[DelightedInYahweh]

There is 12/3 romex in the sheath in the same box as the switch?:?

LOL, yes sir there is is. Ran all nice and pretty. :jawdrop:

They just did not want to run two 12/2 to every receptacle box. So they just utilized the two hots and the neutral of the 12/3. Same concept except you would just have to put another neutral in a wire nut if you ran two 12/2. With everything else I have had to straighten out in the house I guess my mind just wanted this to be wrong as well.

 

[realolman]

I don't know why I don't just give this up. Where exactly does the 12/3 (in the sheath ) begin ?


1. In a box not containing the switch TO the box containing the switch?

2. In the box containing the switch TO the switch (the conductors being in a sheath)?

3. FROM the switch on (no sheath BEFORE the switch).

 

[kwired]

It is a Romex NM-B sheathed 12-3. The red and black are wire nutted to the hot wire of the 12-2. Red goes to switch, black to one side of the receptacles. Red then goes from switch to the other side of the receptacles.

If you have what I think you have, 12-2 in the switch box is the source, from the black wire of the source you pigtail to one side of switch as well as to the black wire of the outgoing 12-3, the pigtail happens to be red - there is no right or wrong on the color of this pigtail as long as it is not white, gray or green. The other side of the switch is connected to the red of outgoing 12-3. Neutrals, grounds tie together and just pass through the box, with a bonding jumper to box and or switch as necessary on the EGC (if done properly, but we are not talking about grounding)

That is what I have thought you were describing from the start, and others have misunderstood something you were describing. Please clarify if that is not what you have.

 

[realolman]

If you have what I think you have, 12-2 in the switch box is the source, from the black wire of the source you pigtail to one side of switch as well as to the black wire of the outgoing 12-3, the pigtail happens to be red - there is no right or wrong on the color of this pigtail as long as it is not white, gray or green. The other side of the switch is connected to the red of outgoing 12-3. Neutrals, grounds tie together and just pass through the box, with a bonding jumper to box and or switch as necessary on the EGC (if done properly, but we are not talking about grounding)

That is what I have thought you were describing from the start, and others have misunderstood something you were describing. Please clarify if that is not what you have.

I think you are probably right. I don't think I misunderstood anything... that ain't what he described.I don't see any question about what you have described. What's the question?

What would be the difference between this and any other splice? Suppose you went from a j box to two separate receptacles. What would be the difference between this and hooking up two receptacles in a double gang box by splicing a conductor to each receptacle from a pigtail?

At any rate I'm done with it. I don't care. I wish I'd never responded.

 

[DelightedInYahweh]

sorry for any confusion I may have caused. Yes kwired that is what I expressed in my first post. It was just in the midst of everything else I was going through just seeing all that in one box made me stop. Just wanted to make sure what I was looking at was fully legit.

 

[kwired]

I think you are probably right. I don't think I misunderstood anything... that ain't what he described.I don't see any question about what you have described. What's the question?

What would be the difference between this and any other splice? Suppose you went from a j box to two separate receptacles. What would be the difference between this and hooking up two receptacles in a double gang box by splicing a conductor to each receptacle from a pigtail?

At any rate I'm done with it. I don't care. I wish I'd never responded.

Charlie mentioned this install was "unconventional" and you seconded that. I am just trying to figure out what is so unconventional about it. This was once very common and is still done sometimes, there is nothing done here that violates any codes or wastes materials if a constant hot and switched leg is the result desired. We do similar thing to supply two separatly switched luminaires via a single 12-3 cable.

 

[realolman]

Charlie mentioned this install was "unconventional" and you seconded that. I am just trying to figure out what is so unconventional about it. This was once very common and is still done sometimes, there is nothing done here that violates any codes or wastes materials if a constant hot and switched leg is the result desired. We do similar thing to supply two separatly switched luminaires via a single 12-3 cable.

What you describe is not unconventional at all. It is garden variety switched receptacles... common. ordinary. nothing unusual.

What he described was running two conductors of a 12/3 that were hooked up to the same hot TO a switch. Describing it as being 12/3 says it's a cable. A pigtail is not 12/3.

Additionally, who would pigtail a piece of 12/3 with the sheath on it in the same enclosure as the switch? Therefore, I think it is only logical to deduce that it is a cable feeding another box with 2 conductors hooked to the same phase. Running two conductors of the same phase to a switch box might not be a violation... but it is a waste of materials.
I think running 2 conductors of 12/3 to a box in parallel might be a violation.... however Charlie correctly pointed out that one conductor fed the switch and the other fed the receptacles, so they were not in parallel. That's what he described that Charlie said was unconventional.

That's what makes it unconventional: two conductors of 12/3 to a switch box.

12/3 FROM a switch to switched receptacles is not unconventional at all. Where would be the question in that? I read this thread because it talked about theory ... I think I see what's going on now

 

[kwired]

A 12/2 is run from the panel as a simple two wire circuit i.e. hot and neutral on a 20amp circuit. It is pulled into a switch box. At the switch box a 12/3 is begun. The red and black is connected to the hot on the 12/2 and of course neutral to neutral. Now the red goes to a switch which in turn feeds one side of a circuit of receptacles. The black feeds the other side. The tab is broken as should be to accommodate the split receptacle circuits.

I see 12-2 entering switch box and 12-3 leaving. He maybe had a little trouble telling us exactly what went on inside that switch box but still got it out that it split from one hot into a hot and a switched conductor in the cable leaving the switch box.

What you describe is not unconventional at all. It is garden variety switched receptacles... common. ordinary. nothing unusual.

What he described was running two conductors of a 12/3 that were hooked up to the same hot TO a switch. Describing it as being 12/3 says it's a cable. A pigtail is not 12/3.

Additionally, who would pigtail a piece of 12/3 with the sheath on it in the same enclosure as the switch? Therefore, I think it is only logical to deduce that it is a cable feeding another box with 2 conductors hooked to the same phase. Running two conductors of the same phase to a switch box might not be a violation... but it is a waste of materials.
I think running 2 conductors of 12/3 to a box in parallel might be a violation.... however Charlie correctly pointed out that one conductor fed the switch and the other fed the receptacles, so they were not in parallel. That's what he described that Charlie said was unconventional.

That's what makes it unconventional: two conductors of 12/3 to a switch box.

12/3 FROM a switch to switched receptacles is not unconventional at all. Where would be the question in that? I read this thread because it talked about theory ... I think I see what's going on now