Design of "Service Entrance Cable"

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charlietuna

Senior Member
I have never installed "Service Entrance Cable" and noticed on a friend's brand new house (under construction) installtion that the bond conductor in his main panel has three strands cut off the incoming aluminum conductor. I was under the understanding that this cable's design size is manufactured for "say" a 200 amp residential installation. Apparently, the installer cut the strands off to make it easier to slide under the ground bus's lug. And again, i am thinking this is a 200 amp residential panel and the "BOND BUS" terminal lug is (?) sized for "the" proper size bond conductor. Thanks for your input
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I agree that a standard '200 amp' SE cable should fit the lugs of 200 amp panel.

My guess would be they are using larger than required conductors or are not landing them in the correct locations.

In no case would I expect, or accept cut off strands if I was paying for the job.
 
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charlietuna

Senior Member
The contractor/installer is 74 years old..... And you can imagine his attitude is "thats plenty good enough". He has the strands all mess up (out of the factory twist) and has taken his Kliens and over twisted the bond wire where it is larger in diameter than a cleanly cut off insulation factory wire. The neutral has reduced size as does the bond conductor in this cable assembly, and like i said, not ever using it, i don't really know. But it sure looks to me that the wire would have fit if not over-twisted. But now it isn't long enough to correct, and from what i see, it might need to be replaced?? This is a funny situation because i think this guy is not dumb, but going senial?? Like taking the car keys away from an elderly person. He told me his wife had him committed to the local hospital for alzhymers(sp) testing??? The entire installation is an electrical mess. Now the inspector is not an electrician, but fairly knowledgable???? He has told me a few stories about him having problems with inspectors in different cities.... He told me he threatened to take them to court???? Now i am just an outsider- looking in???
 
augie47

augie47

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Staff member
Location
Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
My experience is that it depends on the brand of panel and if the installation is a 3 wire (to actual "service" panel), or 4 wire to a "sub-panel. Your reference to the "bond" makes me think it is a 4 wire cable. The common one used in this area would be a 4/0 AL with a 2/0 equipment ground (although a smaller equipment ground is fairly common). In any event, with most manufacturers, if you need to add an equipment grounding bar, the one normally supplied will not accept anything larger than a #4, however, I believe they all offer adapted lugs to accommodate the larger conductors.
Around here, it seems the older the installer, the less likely they are to use the adapter lug :D

(it can be a show when this 70- year old inspector's call clashes with the 70 year old journeyman)
 
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C

charlietuna

Senior Member
This Service Entrance Cable is four wire, 2 number 4/0 for hots, a 2/0 neutral, and a number 4 bond(aluminum). The ITE 200 amp rated panel has 4/0 lugs on the hots, one 2/0 lug on the neutral bus and a number 4 lug on the ground bus. The installer had to order a 1/0 lug kit from his supplier. It looked to me that the cleanly cut number four bond wire in the "Service Entrance Cable" would have properly fit "IF" not damaged from it's factory condition, i think he used it for a pulling eye to get the cable into the panel and then couldn't work with it for a proper temnination. I am a retired electrical contractor, 35 years in the trade, and really don't want to get involved with this problem, but on the other hand feel obligated that this guy, through no fault of his own, may hurt someone? His respect for proper bonding is none existant, and that scares me. The problems throughout this installation has NOTHING to do with cost cutting, most of them are "labor intensive" and cost him labor hours. He is from the "old school" fgor sure!!!
 
ceb58

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
charlietuna said:
This Service Entrance Cable is four wire, 2 number 4/0 for hots, a 2/0 neutral, and a number 4 bond(aluminum). The ITE 200 amp rated panel has 4/0 lugs on the hots, one 2/0 lug on the neutral bus and a number 4 lug on the ground bus. The installer had to order a 1/0 lug kit from his supplier. It looked to me that the cleanly cut number four bond wire in the "Service Entrance Cable" would have properly fit "IF" not damaged from it's factory condition, i think he used it for a pulling eye to get the cable into the panel and then couldn't work with it for a proper temnination. I am a retired electrical contractor, 35 years in the trade, and really don't want to get involved with this problem, but on the other hand feel obligated that this guy, through no fault of his own, may hurt someone? His respect for proper bonding is none existant, and that scares me. The problems throughout this installation has NOTHING to do with cost cutting, most of them are "labor intensive" and cost him labor hours. He is from the "old school" fgor sure!!!
Click to expand...

It sounds as if the HO should now step in and let him go. Then bring in some one who is physically capable of completing the job.
 
C

charlietuna

Senior Member
The house has just been energized for test. The house is being built by a general contractor. The last items are the interior painting a some tile work. I don't think the GC really knows just how bad this guy is. After all, everything works, now weather it is properly grounded or up to code is another thing?? I feel more concerned about the situation than my friend, the upcoming "new owner"..... My friend has questioned the GC about some issues, and although they corrected them, he seemed to think his electrician was doing him a good job? How about installing the bathroom wall mounted light fixtures without junction boxes? Just connect the fixture leads directly to the romex, straight out of the wall -- no box, no connector. Used toggle bolts to mount the fixture. The comment by the GC was , "thats the way my bathroom is wired"... See where this going.....................
 
M

meternerd

Senior Member
Location
Athol, ID
Occupation
retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
charlietuna said:
This Service Entrance Cable is four wire, 2 number 4/0 for hots, a 2/0 neutral, and a number 4 bond(aluminum). The ITE 200 amp rated panel has 4/0 lugs on the hots, one 2/0 lug on the neutral bus and a number 4 lug on the ground bus. The installer had to order a 1/0 lug kit from his supplier. It looked to me that the cleanly cut number four bond wire in the "Service Entrance Cable" would have properly fit "IF" not damaged from it's factory condition, i think he used it for a pulling eye to get the cable into the panel and then couldn't work with it for a proper temnination. I am a retired electrical contractor, 35 years in the trade, and really don't want to get involved with this problem, but on the other hand feel obligated that this guy, through no fault of his own, may hurt someone? His respect for proper bonding is none existant, and that scares me. The problems throughout this installation has NOTHING to do with cost cutting, most of them are "labor intensive" and cost him labor hours. He is from the "old school" fgor sure!!!
Click to expand...

Why would a single phase service entrance cable have 4 wires? The POCO does not run a "bond" wire to the panel. Only a grounded neutral. Grounds at the panel are derived from the grounding electrode system. Am I wrong, or is this a regional thing?
 
J

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
meternerd said:
Why would a single phase service entrance cable have 4 wires? The POCO does not run a "bond" wire to the panel. Only a grounded neutral. Grounds at the panel are derived from the grounding electrode system. Am I wrong, or is this a regional thing?
Click to expand...

4 Wire ? The only thing that we can deduct-assume is that it is a sub panel.
 
roger

roger

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Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
charlietuna said:
What bonds the meter socket to the house panel ? The raceway from the meter socket to the panel is PVC.....
Click to expand...
The Grounded Conductor. The Neutral / Grounded Conductor connection is already bonded to the meter from the manufacturer of the meter can, then the Neutral / Grounded Conductor is bonded to the panel enclosure with the Main Bonding Jumper which can be a factory supplied screw, a wire conductor , a bar, etc....


Roger
 
roger

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
charlietuna said:
What bonds the meter socket to the house panel ? The raceway from the meter socket to the panel is PVC.....
Click to expand...
This is what it would look like.

Neutralatservice.jpg


Roger
 
G

Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
charlietuna said:
What bonds the meter socket to the house panel ? The raceway from the meter socket to the panel is PVC.....
Click to expand...

As others have stated, the Neutral (or grounded) bonds meter can to panel

Did he separate the grounds and neutrals?
if not, then that #4 ground(i think that was the size you stated) will become the 'Neutral' if something should happen to the actual Neutral

I have used 4/0 SER in this manner but I always cut the bare ground wire out
 
ceb58

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Gac66610 said:
As others have stated, the Neutral (or grounded) bonds meter can to panel

Did he separate the grounds and neutrals?
if not, then that #4 ground(i think that was the size you stated) will become the 'Neutral' if something should happen to the actual Neutral

I have used 4/0 SER in this manner but I always cut the bare ground wire out
Click to expand...

I have done the same in a pinch. The only way he would need/could use the #4 were if it were a meter/breaker combo outside.
 
jxofaltrds

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
charlietuna said:
I have never installed "Service Entrance Cable" and noticed on a friend's brand new house (under construction) installtion that the bond conductor in his main panel has three strands cut off the incoming aluminum conductor. I was under the understanding that this cable's design size is manufactured for "say" a 200 amp residential installation. Apparently, the installer cut the strands off to make it easier to slide under the ground bus's lug. And again, i am thinking this is a 200 amp residential panel and the "BOND BUS" terminal lug is (?) sized for "the" proper size bond conductor. Thanks for your input
Click to expand...

You already know the answer!

thCAM27N6L.jpg
 
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