I did some trenching for a customer. I asked the old owner of the property where some buried lines were. He told me they were ran deep with the water lines going out to the well. Like most lines here are. He was wrong and we trenched write down the middle of the wires. Can I charge my new customer for fixing this? Or do I need to eat it?
Do I bill or eat the costs.
- Thread starter arnettda
- Start date
- Status
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
There is no right or wrong to this one. What if any agreement did you have with current owner?
I have learned that buried lines are never where the owner claims they are. Electric lines are generally easy to trace if you have the right equipment of course. Non metallic water lines with no locator wire is a different story - but around here they are seldom an issue with installing electric lines unless you intend to install them pretty deep for some reason.
If customer has lawn irrigation you never know where lines are buried. Even if they have some kind of map, you only have general idea of the layout and not exact locations. SOP with them is we trench where we have to and any damaged lines are customers responsibility or we can repair at additional charges over the other work we were there for. Sometimes (more like almost always) it is cheaper to just repair a line than wasting time looking for it anyway. Do turn the sprinklers on and at least locate the heads so you can avoid having to replace any of those.
Something I recall from a business law class, if something is visible or able to be observed, you are expected to see it or know it and the cost is in your contract. Some kind of legal doctrine or tort.
If the problem is not observable or reasonably forseeable, if you are not reasonably expected to forsee it, the unexpected or unforseeable cost is not in the contract. My guess is something buried in the yard is not reasonably forseeable or observable. You consulted the owner's knowledge, his maps if any, and 1 800 CBYD. In the case of a very expensive yard (expensive utilities) you might be expected to xray, survey, or take other expensive precautions. I would use the key word unforseeable (because it was buried), explain you took steps to avoid this, and explain the cost is not in your contract.
It would be solidly in your favor if you could show the exisiting wiring did not meet code somehow, indicating replacement.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
For the cost to be included in a contract there must actually be a contract. Outside of that - you can go almost any direction with this situation, and there really is not right or wrong from either party, or even the previous owner that obviously did not remember where this was installed.
If existing wiring did not meet code --- you have a big can of worms if you destroyed it and it had nothing to do with what you were there for. Simply saying it did not meet code is not going to work. What if you crashed into the guys car with your truck, and tried to get out of paying for damages because his car did not meet current safety or emissions standards or something like that, or how about if you break a window on his house and you find the window was not installed correctly. The incorrect installation was not a contributing factor to you breaking it.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
This repair makes the cost of a cable locator pretty insignificant. If you are doing trenching, get a locator, or hire it done. Finding private lines are the responsibility of the contractor doing the work. I say you eat it.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
yup. i got the impression you were running parallell with the buried
cable, and dug up a fair bit of it, but i may be mistaken.
usually it's pretty noticable when you start puking plastic and wire out
with the dirt.... is this direct burial, or in conduit?
direct burial you have hypress and cold shrink tube as a good solution.
megger before backfill. :happyyes:
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
You eat it.
Here is the LAW in Ohio.
This includes digging a hole for a plant!
"By law, everyone MUST contact the Ohio Utilities Protection Service, 8-1-1 or 1-800-362-2764, at least 48 hours but no more than 10 working days (excluding weekends and legal holidays) before beginning ANY digging project."
http://www.oups.org/
If you were in Ohio and hit a fiber optic cable-----
What if you hit someone's car and their car is not registered to be on the road. What if your car is hit on the road and it's not registered. Insurance does not pay for illegal activity. That happened to someone I know, but do not know how it was resolved or how the law applied. He hit someone while his vehicle was unregistered (he was not on the road legally).
Coring through concrete floors there are many examples of coring through electrical and phone conduits in the slab. Seen a few but not done one myself. If it's not specifically stated in the contract what happens in that event (condition subsequent), actually I don't know how the law applies to that but I know the legal doctrine, if it is able to be observed you are expected to have seen it. If it is not observable or forseeable before you hit it, that's where the question turns. You are expected to take reasonable steps to prevent damages, however, the owner provides the conditions or environment you work under.
The hit buried circuit, one I saw belonged to a State Representative, lawyer from a family of lawyers. His landscapers had ripped up old shrubbery on his order and the wire that fed the pool came up with it, ~ 100 ft of it. He was tossing around the question of charging the landscapers for it when I told him UF did not meet code for a pool. If the wiring met code it would have been in PVC condit buried 18" or RGS buried 6" and would not have come up with the shrub's roots. Don't know how it was resolved but I saw him lose all steam before my eyes when I told him that.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
The line he is describing is likely a privately owned line and would not have been located via one call systems, they usually tell you that when you make the call also, which merits reminding people to use one call systems, but otherwise is not all that relavent to the topic of this thread.
Back to the topic, just who is at fault for damaging the existing cable? It apparently was known it was there yet the effort to positively identify where it was is questionable. Just assuming it was buried with water line leaves risk of it not being with the water line. Even if installed at same time as water line maybe the guy forgot they partially filled the trench before installing the electric line.
Then there is the fact the Op says "we trenched right down the middle of the wires" does that mean the trench followed the buried wires and damaged a long section of them? Just hitting them and having to repair them is one thing and to hit them and continue ripping them up is another. For short runs it may be about as easy and cheap to continue digging and just replace, if you tear up several hundred feet why did you not stop and assess the situation when it was first noticed you were tearing it up? How would you dig that far and not notice you hit it a lot sooner?
If I were the owner and you simply damaged it at a crossing point I would probably just say - things happen and pay for repair, if you tore up a long run of it, I would be questioning why you did so.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
"Why won't the utilities mark all service lines?
Answer:
Each utility shall locate and mark the approximate location of its underground utility facilities at the excavation site. They may not mark service lines that were privately installed. It would be the property owner?s responsibility to have these lines located.
Ohio Revised Code: 3781.29 (A)"
Since I do not know where he lives: http://www.call811.com/state-specific.aspx
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I think we both said essentially the same thing.
The line in question in the OP was running to a private owned well. Good chance it is not a utility owned or maintained line therefore would not be located by requests through most one call service centers.
Rewire
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake of the Ozarks
rule #1 The customer has to win.
You can charge the customer but the only thing he will remember about you is that you tore up his lines and hge had to pay to fix them . This is also what he will tell anyone that will listen so referals will be pout of the question.
you can obsorb the cost and the customer will then remember all the reasons he hired you in the first place.
You can charge the customer but the only thing he will remember about you is that you tore up his lines and hge had to pay to fix them . This is also what he will tell anyone that will listen so referals will be pout of the question.
you can obsorb the cost and the customer will then remember all the reasons he hired you in the first place.
weressl
Esteemed Member
The key phrase in your OP is "he was wrong". If he was wrong, why should you pay for it?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
And we complicate this with the fact that the person who was wrong was a previous owner of the property. What you think the chances of him being willing to pay the bill are? All he did was essentially offer some advice, and not necessarily confirm anything.
I said earlier - when it comes to buried lines, people never remember just where or how they were run. I don't know how many times I had someone swear that a line was run through such and such area, I hook my locator up and they are wrong. Just had one recently - it should run about "here". I connected locator and it was farther to east and right through a grove of cedar trees. "Well those trees must not have been there 30 years ago when it was buried" You think that is a good possibility?
Rewire
Senior Member
- Location
- Lake of the Ozarks
rt66electric
Senior Member
- Location
- Oklahoma
run a line from the house to the detached garage
run a line from the house to the detached garage
nrun a line from the house to the detached garage.... Ok here is your price,,,,,,,, OH BTW there is a 24' high pressure Gas line down the middle of rich peoples back yard....... OK NOW here is your price......... all I need is a few light and a table saw.........How much? .. OK hers is your price......
In reality 7 1/2 H.P. saw 7 1/2 H.P. air compressor 3 1/2 ton A/C... BIG 2 hp dust collectors 24 lights 10 Quad recepts for grinder hand tools, work bench etsc.........
Oh yeah Electric heat..
WAIT any thing else....
OK NOW !!!!! Here is your price ???....... T+M yes-sir we can add that also
GOTTA LOVE It Paid on the spot after completion
Gas man was on location for spotting hp main.
sombody else repaired the mystery irrigation that was not there when we trenched right through.
sombody else reburied the cable/phone
Happy contractor ,,, Happy customer.
run a line from the house to the detached garage
nrun a line from the house to the detached garage.... Ok here is your price,,,,,,,, OH BTW there is a 24' high pressure Gas line down the middle of rich peoples back yard....... OK NOW here is your price......... all I need is a few light and a table saw.........How much? .. OK hers is your price......
In reality 7 1/2 H.P. saw 7 1/2 H.P. air compressor 3 1/2 ton A/C... BIG 2 hp dust collectors 24 lights 10 Quad recepts for grinder hand tools, work bench etsc.........
Oh yeah Electric heat..
WAIT any thing else....
OK NOW !!!!! Here is your price ???....... T+M yes-sir we can add that also
GOTTA LOVE It Paid on the spot after completion
Gas man was on location for spotting hp main.
sombody else repaired the mystery irrigation that was not there when we trenched right through.
sombody else reburied the cable/phone
Happy contractor ,,, Happy customer.
Cow
Senior Member
- Location
- Eastern Oregon
- Occupation
- Electrician
I can't think of a time we didn't eat the cost of the repair when we did the trenching and hit something. Often times, we'll have our shop guy doing the trenching, so if he hits it, he's fixing it and it's not an electrician or two wasting time fixing a water line.
We almost always try to get the customer to do the digging, if they're capable, especially when there are other utilities in the ground nearby. It takes the "who will pay for the repair" right out of the equation.
I think your situation is what some people call "experience".
We almost always try to get the customer to do the digging, if they're capable, especially when there are other utilities in the ground nearby. It takes the "who will pay for the repair" right out of the equation.
I think your situation is what some people call "experience".
The customer is not the one paying the bill. I buit a new service as the old one was damaged by a lighting strike. As were some underground feeders. I was replacing one of them. I will be billing the insurance company.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I guess the bottom line is if there was a price up front, you probably eat the cost in most cases, if you knew there was a risk of this happening you should have had accounted for that possibility in the upfront price.
If there is not an upfront price, there are too many directions this can go. Some involve eating the cost, some involve getting paid for it.
I really don't see how you can get a locate for this based on a previous owners recollection and expect it to be reliable, that right there was the biggest risk taken in this process. Are you going to try to collect from the previous owner that gave you the incorrect information? It is not really his problem, he likely was not paid to provide this information. If you hired someone to locate it and they were wrong that is a different ballgame.
But again repairing this line shouldn't be too major of an expense, and if you destroyed a long section and it essentially needs replaced - well whoever was operating the excavation equipment should have stopped long before destroying that much and re-assessed the situation.
If there is not an upfront price, there are too many directions this can go. Some involve eating the cost, some involve getting paid for it.
I really don't see how you can get a locate for this based on a previous owners recollection and expect it to be reliable, that right there was the biggest risk taken in this process. Are you going to try to collect from the previous owner that gave you the incorrect information? It is not really his problem, he likely was not paid to provide this information. If you hired someone to locate it and they were wrong that is a different ballgame.
But again repairing this line shouldn't be too major of an expense, and if you destroyed a long section and it essentially needs replaced - well whoever was operating the excavation equipment should have stopped long before destroying that much and re-assessed the situation.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
that was pretty much my thought.....
when i was a first year muppet, my employer chalked out a ton
of underground, and brought in a 12" bucket wheel to get the
job done right..... whoo hoo.... down went the wheel, and away
the guy went... late 70's, and dig alert was not called... not sure
if dig alert was in force the way it is now, even.
there was an 8" fire main..... and it was encased in concrete no less..
so the guy just left the wheel down, until it chewed thru the concrete
and broke the main....
it was after about a week of trenching, and we were hot on his tail
all that time running pvc.... and when he broke it, nobody knew
where there was a shutoff at... turns out there was more than one
to isolate the line... it ran for about 5 hours... flooded every ditch,
all the 4" pvc floated up to the top, the ditches caved in, and the
pvc sank back eventually down into the mud.
contractor went broke that day. it took a few months for that to
be fully realized, but it cost him his business.... the thing i remember
being told, was that if the only thing i learned in my apprenticeship,
was how to put underground in without screwing up the job, i
would have learned something a lot of folks don't know.
- Status