Are lug's code compliant on this DIY 175A breaker panel? Needed for 10KW PV system

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superduperenergydude

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Location
york, sc
I am getting a 10KW system installed for a relative.<br>
They have a 200AMP load center.<br>
Per NEC code it needs to be downsized to 175A main breaker.

Unfortunately, she has a Siemens PL series 200A load center and Siemens does NOT make a 175A Main Breaker Kit. So instead of just swaping out the main breaker.... we need to do the following:

1. Take out exsisting Siemens 200A Breaker and replace it with two main lugs.<br>
2. Install a new panel with a 175a main Breaker in it
; which feeds the exsisting Siemens panel.

I've gone to a few electrical supply places and NONE of them have heard of a 175 main breaker kit. I finally just ordered a GE one online. It was not easy to find, but I'm resourceful.

Next hurdle was finding an Enclosure/panel, Only ones I could find were full sized 200AMP whole house load centers. It is impractical to put another full size panel in the garage

So I took a smallish 125A breaker box and gutted it.
Put 1/4" thick piece of plastic on the bottom and then bolted the 175A breaker on top
Put Three Main lugs into the panel. One for ground, black and Red.
There was no real way to attach them so I took a 1/4-20 bolt and bolted them on.

Will this pass code? Would you make any changes?
See photo below
http://s9.postimage.org/gxfzxwy19/electrical_panel.jpg
 

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Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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I am closing this thread, in accordance with the Forum rules. This Forum is intended to assist professional electricians, inspectors, engineers, and other members of the electrical industry in the performance of their job-related tasks. However, if you are not an electrician or an electrical contractor, then we are not permitted to help you perform your own electrical installation work.


If I have misjudged the situation, if for example this project is related to your work, then send me a Private Message. If you can show me that I am wrong, and that you are a licensed electrician (or at least a licensed apprentice), then I will reopen your post, and offer an apology for the delay and inconvenience.

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fmtjfw

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Location
Fairmont, WV, USA
1. There is nothing that prevents you from feeding a 200A CB with a 175A CB
2. By making your own "lug kit" you have voided the UL listing of the panel.
3. The AHJ can choose to pass the new assembly, if he/she wishes.

The code compliant way would be to choose 1. above.
 
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Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
This question has been/is posted on atleast three different sights, wonder if he's not getting the answer he wants, or wants as many inputs as possible.

I would post links, I'm just not that interweb savy:D
 
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petersonra

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Northern illinois
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engineer
fmtjfw said:
1. There is nothing that prevents you from feeding a 200A CB with a 175A CB
2. By making your own "lug kit" you have voided the UL listing of the panel.
3. The AHJ can choose to pass the new assembly, if he/she wishes.

The code compliant way would be to choose 1. above.
Click to expand...

I am not sure you have "voided" anything. As long as the instructions for the device don't preclude what you are doing, you may well be fine. There are a lot more field modifications that are specifically permitted by the manufacturer's instructions (or at least not prohibited) than most people realize.

A lot of times circuit breakers come with no lugs at all. Are violating the listing by adding some to connect up your wires? Sometimes the lugs that come with a breaker are not appropriate. Are you violating any listing by changing them to a different listed lug?
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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I would install a 200 amp fusible disconnect with 175 amp fuses as the service disconnect and connect the load side of the new disconnect to the line side of the 200 amp breaker in the panel. You will also have to relocate the main bonding jumper to the new disconnect and separate the EGCs and neutrals at the existing panel.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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superduperenergydude said:
first thanks for all the feedback. I'm new to all this.
so if I buy a disconnect like this one
http://www.edwardssupply.com/product.php?productid=135433&cat=3121&page=3

will it have the lugs inside or do I have to add them by bolting them on?

If my local AHJ lets me keep the panel pictured would adding one more lug for the neutral be necessary? Right now it is just passing through.
Click to expand...
The disconnect must me listed as "suitable for use as service equipment" and must have a neutral bar. The neutral has to be landed in the disconnect and the main bonding jumper must be installed in the disconnect.
 
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petersonra

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engineer
don_resqcapt19 said:
The disconnect must me listed as "suitable for use as service equipment" and must have a neutral bar. The neutral has to be landed in the disconnect and the main bonding jumper must be installed in the disconnect.
Click to expand...

I have never understood the need to have a device listed as service equipment when the only difference is a main bonding jumper.

A typical panel board uses a screw that goes through the neutral bar into the panel below as the MBJ. There is no prohibition that I am aware of to not use this screw and just add a suitably sized wire between the neutral and ground bars. So why can't you just do that on any device and turn it into a device suitable for a service disconnect? It is not like we do many service rated things, but I seem to recall that UL508a does allow this.
 
Smart $

Smart $

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don_resqcapt19 said:
I would install a 200 amp fusible disconnect with 175 amp fuses as the service disconnect and connect the load side of the new disconnect to the line side of the 200 amp breaker in the panel. You will also have to relocate the main bonding jumper to the new disconnect and separate the EGCs and neutrals at the existing panel.
Click to expand...
I'm wondering if it would be much easier to just install a service disconnect for the PV system and tap into the service conductors, and tap the GEC. No change to the 200A panelboard. For a 10kW max system, a 60A disconnect fused at 45A or a 45A MCCB would suffice. Other details would present themselves, such as where and how to tap the service conductors.
 
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superduperenergydude

Member
Location
york, sc
ahj does not permit line said taps for residential

ahj does not permit line said taps for residential

Unfortuantely AHJ does not permit line side taps for residential.


I thought this would be a very common situation with a common solution? I guess not. There are a lot of 200A homes out there. Do most of you PV installers just recommend 7.1KW max systems so you dont' have to mess with this?
 
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superduperenergydude

Member
Location
york, sc
pictures of disconnect switch

pictures of disconnect switch

200aswitch.jpg 200aswitch2.jpg

I've never looked at one of these disconnect switches in peson and these are the only images on the internet I could find.
It appears the GE breaker I have would bolt on perfectly onto the black and red lugs in the photos. I'd still have to mechanically mount it in the middle.

If I had the panel in front of me I could tell how the switch wires are set up, but I can't tell from just the photo.

Will this work?
 
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superduperenergydude

Member
Location
york, sc
LOL I tried ordering that exact breaker from that exact web site a couple of weeks ago.
They are out of stock and cancelled my order.
And why is it when You search for a big breaker there are a dozen google results for companies that do not even sell it. Case in point for this very breaker.
 
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fmtjfw

Senior Member
Location
Fairmont, WV, USA
petersonra said:
I am not sure you have "voided" anything. As long as the instructions for the device don't preclude what you are doing, you may well be fine. There are a lot more field modifications that are specifically permitted by the manufacturer's instructions (or at least not prohibited) than most people realize.

A lot of times circuit breakers come with no lugs at all. Are violating the listing by adding some to connect up your wires? Sometimes the lugs that come with a breaker are not appropriate. Are you violating any listing by changing them to a different listed lug?
Click to expand...

If you take a circuit breaker cabinet and interior which has a main breaker -- you can't find a lug kit for this interior, because the manufacturer doesn't make one for it, you may be violating something when you pop the breaker and put in lugs.

If you remove the 200A main breaker you are going to leave a big honking hole where the breaker used to poke through the cover.

If you put a 175A circuit breaker in a 125A breaker box, you've probably also violated something. If you stuck a piece of plastic behind some part of a breaker interior, you've probably violated something.

In the UL White Book there is a section on Panelboards in the back which contains:

15. FIELD INSTALLED UNITS OR EQUIPMENT

Panelboards are usually provided with the required main line and neutral terminals. The overcurrent
protection units are furnished with required load terminals. However, if the pressure wire
connectors are not provided on the panelboard when shipped, the panelboard is required to be
marked stating which pressure wire connectors or component terminal kits are acceptable for use
with the panelboard.

A main terminal kit consisting of individual wire connectors or an assembly of terminals, bus
connectors and means for bolting or plugging, is required to be marked with the manufacturer?s
identification and catalog designation.
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

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superduperenergydude said:
LOL I tried ordering that exact breaker from that exact web site a couple of weeks ago.
They are out of stock and cancelled my order.
And why is it when You search for a big breaker there are a dozen google results for companies that do not even sell it. Case in point for this very breaker.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good reason to go to the supply house before wasting time chasing basic parts on Google.
 
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