Large Wire Pull Problems

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Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
We're installing some feeders at our facility in buried conduit. We've hired an electrical contractor to perform the installation. Part of the installation involves pulling multiple 350 kcmil CU-XHHW and 500 kcmil AL-XHHW conductors into 4" PVC conduits. Most of the crew assigned to performing the pulls were unskilled laborers hired by the contractor through a temp agency. There were, at most, only two electricians present for the pulls. The owner/contractor, who is an electrical engineer, has largely been absent during these pulls.

I've observed a number of practices during these pulls that I feel are unprofessional, do not comply with industry best practices, and may lead to failed conductors over time:

1. The wire was laid out on the ground (partially on bare rocky soil and partially on asphalt). On some of the pulls, plywood sheets were first laid on the ground to protect the wire, but for most of the pulls this was not done. For the most part, the wire bundles were picked up and carried "fire brigade" style during the pulls, but in every pull there was some dragging of the wires on the ground. Furthermore, I repeatedly observed the crews walking on the wire (while the wire was on the plywood, on the asphalt, and on the rocky soil). Even after I instructed them to stop walking on the wire, they'd be standing and walking on it again literally within minutes. This occurred during every pull, over the course of several days. Sometimes the foreman or senior electrician on the crew would echo my instructions (after I brought it to their attention), but nothing was done to correct the problem, and the crew would still be standing/walking on the wires minutes later.

2. Some of the wire bundles were pulled into five runs of 4" PVC conduit that had been buried 15 years ago. At the time we opened the Christy box, all the ends of the conduit (entering the box horizontally, but sloped slightly downhill away from the box) were completely buried in sand and dirt that had washed into the box over the years. Although the bottom of the box was cleaned out by hand, the contractor never proofed the conduits. On the day of the pull, I wanted them to pull a duct swab or mandrel through the conduit to clear any dirt, sand, rocks, or other debris out of the conduit. The contractor didn't have the tools and didn't want to take the time, but I finally persuaded him to at least pull a terry cloth rag through the conduit to swab it. It brought out a lot of very muddy water, but no obvious large obstructions. After that, the contractor decided it was a waste of time, and didn't swab/proof the remaining conduits.

3. The contractor brought a large Greenlee wire pulling machine (with LED tension indicators). But he only used it on one end of the conduit runs (where the conduit terminated inside our electrical utility shed). For the wire pulls out in the field, they used earth moving equipment (a back hoe excavator and a Bobcat) to pull the wire. They were never pulling the wire at more than one location at a time, so the only reason not to use the Greenlee wire puller for every run was to avoid the effort and time to move the puller to different pull locations on the job site. Furthermore, for at least some of the pulls, there was no skilled operator on site for the heavy machinery, so they had one of the temp workers running the hydraulic bucket to make the pull. They tied one end of the pull rope to the bucket (with no ability for the rope to slip if necessary to ease tension), and then he just pulled at the maximum speed that the bucket would operate. Then they'd stop, lower the bucket, re-tie the pull rope, and yank again.

4. Even knowing that the existing conduits were filled with brackish water (our property is behind a levy with salt water on the other side), the contractor did not seal any of the ends of the wire before pulling them. I expressed my concern about the salty water entering the spaces between the strands via the cable ends, but he blew me off.

From one of Southwire's wire installation publications, I know that #2 and #4 are wrong. But I can't find any documentation to support my position that walking on the wire insulation, and pulling wire with earth-moving equipment are against industry best-practices. But it's my opinion that those things are not mentioned only because it violates common sense and every professional should know not to do such things.

I'd like to solicit feedback from the many experienced and respected electricians, engineers, and inspectors in this forum. Am I being overly-concerned? Or am I correct in believing that our contractor's cost-cutting measures are putting us at risk for future failed conductors? I am advising the facility owner to at least have all the conductors meggered by a third-party electrician to check for insulation damage, but he needs "ammo" to justify forcing the contractor to pay for that additional expense.
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
In my opinion some body higher up the chain should have ironed out these issues before the

pull.

Conduit to be free of foriegn material before pull.

Pulling tension not to exceed _________

Conductors to be meggered after pull

etc etc

All of these issues should be spelled out in your contract.
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
All of these issues should be spelled out in your contract.

The owner of the facility is not an electrician. The work was put out to bid, and this particular contractor won the bid. He won not only based on price; he also had good credentials. The owner liked that the contractor was an electrical engineer, and not just a businessman.

I was brought into the project when actual on-site work began, so I had no opportunity to review the contract and advise the facility owner in advance.

How do business owners, without a master electrician on staff, bid out an electrical contract and ensure the proper industry standards and practices are: (A) Included in the contract; and (B) Performed on the job by the electrical contractor hired to do the job?
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
I'm curious about the lack of replies in this thread. Is it because people are adverse to criticizing others in the trade? Or am I being overly-concerned about the way these wires were pulled?
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I'm curious about the lack of replies in this thread. Is it because people are adverse to criticizing others in the trade? Or am I being overly-concerned about the way these wires were pulled?

Could be that or could be the fact that you didn't post this until 7:30 last night and people haven't had a chance to read it yet.
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
Could be that or could be the fact that you didn't post this until 7:30 last night and people haven't had a chance to read it yet.

I was looking at the 100+ thread views and only one reply. Surely not all of those views were from non-members. :? But I'm hoping you are correct.
 

bob

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
I would suggest you repost this under electrical calculation/engineering forum. Lots of activity there.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I was looking at the 100+ thread views and only one reply. Surely not all of those views were from non-members. :? But I'm hoping you are correct.

My guess is that many of us have done some, or all of the things you cite, at one time or another, and like me, they are afraid of admitting it to the more, shall we say, "holier than though" posters here.

I, for example, don't really have a problem with flaking the wire out on the ground, I have done it many times, and I have been on the feeding end and not seen adverse problems with the jacket. OTOH, I have had it start raining and picked up mud on the wire causing me to clean every foot with a rag. I wouldn't pull 200 feet of 500KCMILA across a parking lot, but 20 feet wouldn't bother me, and I know how to either figure 8 or snake my pulls.

Cleaning out the conduit, is, as another poster stated, a preference unless the specifications call for it. A 4" mandel and brush cost about $400.00 and then you still need every other size. As long as the wires are meggered after the pull, I figure, it is my risk to take. If you want to ensure that this is done, spell it out up front. As an estimator, I am going to figure I can charge more. You et what you pay for.

I don't really think walking on wire is going to hurt it unless there are sharp rocks under the actual walking area. However, if a Customer mentioned it to me, I would be ripping my guys a new one if they didn't comply, because it is not an unreasonable request by any stritch
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I'm curious about the lack of replies in this thread. Is it because people are adverse to criticizing others in the trade? Or am I being overly-concerned about the way these wires were pulled?
It is really hard to say how bad it was at your job, context is everything. I will say that I have done, at one time or another, everything you have described. Electrical work is after all construction work. It's hard, dirty and inelegant at times.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
It is really hard to say how bad it was at your job, context is everything. I will say that I have done, at one time or another, everything you have described. Electrical work is after all construction work. It's hard, dirty and inelegant at times.

Thanks, I stuck my neck out and said the same basic thing, I was hoping I didn't get flamed.
 

CIECO

Senior Member
Low Bid

Low Bid

It sounds to me your boss got what he paid for. But it will probably run for ever.
 

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
Just finished pulling in feeders, spent about 2 months strait pulling in 4-500 and 4- 600's in 4" EMT. We also pulled outside in exposed cable tray, had the spools set up outside . There was 30 separate pulls into the cable tray (it went from the generator to the forth floor switchgear rooms. We used 4'x8' sheets of cardboard material on the ground from the spools to the first pulley. This insures the wire will not get damaged while on ground, it only takes on little pebble to cost a whole lot of money. We used the greenlee tugger for every pull, unless it could be pulled by hand, because the tugger has a consistently, study pull. You hire Electrical contractors when doing electrical work !
 
Last edited:

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
You hire Electrical contractors when doing electrical work !
The contractor I'm referring to IS an electrical contractor. That's why I'm so upset about the short-cut practices and poor quality of work. Nothing I've mentioned is difficult, it just adds a little time to the job to do it right. I'm not even expecting tension or sidewall pressure calculations on these pulls. But I do think it's reasonable to expect him to have skilled and qualified personnel on the job, and to take the extra time and attention to do the job correctly. This contractor is not willing to do that.
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
It sounds to me your boss got what he paid for. But it will probably run for ever.
One of the reasons I'm concerned is that when our sixteen existing 500 mcm aluminum service feeders were pulled out of the four conduits to be fed back into two conduits, one of the wires was corroded, swollen, and disintegrating mid-span due to damage to the insulation from when it was originally installed. One of the 1/0 aluminum EGCs also had damaged insulation and the aluminum had completely separated within the Christy box due to corrosion and, presumably, from electrolysis due to current leakage from the damaged phase conductor in the water-filled conduit.

Knowing this, one would expect the electrical contractor to be extra careful not to damage the insulation on the re-pull of our existing feeders, and on the new feeder pulls. But then, I'm ex-military, so I acknowledge I have a different work ethic and attitude about getting the job done right.
 

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
Knowing this, one would expect the electrical contractor to be extra careful not to damage the insulation on the re-pull of our existing feeders, and on the new feeder pulls. But then, I'm ex-military, so I acknowledge I have a different work ethic and attitude about getting the job done right.


Jon, most electrical contractors take extreme caution when pulling in feeders and other wiring. The wiring that we just finished pulling was all COPPER and the cost had to be well over a million just for all the wire. Care has and must be a priority when dealing with that kind of money and danger.
 

Jon456

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
Jon, most electrical contractors take extreme caution when pulling in feeders and other wiring. The wiring that we just finished pulling was all COPPER and the cost had to be well over a million just for all the wire. Care has and must be a priority when dealing with that kind of money and danger.
Then you and I agree. While our existing 1,000A feeders were XHHW aluminum (sixteen 500 mcm conductors plus two 1/0 EGCs @ 360 ft each), the new 1,600A feeders we're having installed are XHHW copper (eighteen 350 mcm phase conductors plus three 4/0 EGCs @ 750 ft each). This is all 480V 3-phase power. I don't know what the wire cost, but I know it's not cheap!

P.S. Does anyone notice the code violation above?
 

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Then you and I agree. While our existing 1,000A feeders were XHHW aluminum (sixteen 500 mcm conductors plus two 1/0 EGCs @ 360 ft each), the new 1,600A feeders we're having installed are XHHW copper (eighteen 350 mcm phase conductors plus three 4/0 EGCs @ 750 ft each). This is all 480V 3-phase power. I don't know what the wire cost, but I know it's not cheap!

P.S. Does anyone notice the code violation above?

I don't know the code violation but I do know that when soliciting prices for work it is important that the specifications are clear. Most of what you describe as problems happen on many jobs where the spec. is silent. Because your boss was not knowledeable about electrical installations he should have hired an engineer or you to write a spec. You might require the contractor to megger the cables in your presence so you can witness the readings. If a cable flunks the test you will need to do something.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
One of the reasons I'm concerned is that when our sixteen existing 500 mcm aluminum service feeders were pulled out of the four conduits to be fed back into two conduits, one of the wires was corroded, swollen, and disintegrating mid-span due to damage to the insulation from when it was originally installed. One of the 1/0 aluminum EGCs also had damaged insulation and the aluminum had completely separated within the Christy box due to corrosion and, presumably, from electrolysis due to current leakage from the damaged phase conductor in the water-filled conduit.

Knowing this, one would expect the electrical contractor to be extra careful not to damage the insulation on the re-pull of our existing feeders, and on the new feeder pulls. But then, I'm ex-military, so I acknowledge I have a different work ethic and attitude about getting the job done right.

I was not planning on posting here as I have some pretty high standards for proper equipment and well experienced/trained people when installing large/long/expensive conductors and I was afraid of being flamed as primadonna. But with your latest info saying that a bunch of hacks using a backhoe removed old conductors from a brackish laden underground conduit, that you could visibly see damage,and were reinstalled with the same care and skill you described in your post #1, well, that kind of puts it over the top for me. If I am understanding this scenario correctly, I think you have valid concerns. It's not a matter of if, but when it will fail.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
We're installing some feeders at our facility in buried conduit. We've hired an electrical contractor to perform the installation. Part of the installation involves pulling multiple 350 kcmil CU-XHHW and 500 kcmil AL-XHHW conductors into 4" PVC conduits. Most of the crew assigned to performing the pulls were unskilled laborers hired by the contractor through a temp agency. There were, at most, only two electricians present for the pulls. The owner/contractor, who is an electrical engineer, has largely been absent during these pulls.

I've observed a number of practices during these pulls that I feel are unprofessional, do not comply with industry best practices, and may lead to failed conductors over time:

Did the contract specify anything about using "best practices"? Or the use of temporary labor?

1. The wire was laid out on the ground (partially on bare rocky soil and partially on asphalt). On some of the pulls, plywood sheets were first laid on the ground to protect the wire, but for most of the pulls this was not done. For the most part, the wire bundles were picked up and carried "fire brigade" style during the pulls, but in every pull there was some dragging of the wires on the ground. Furthermore, I repeatedly observed the crews walking on the wire (while the wire was on the plywood, on the asphalt, and on the rocky soil). Even after I instructed them to stop walking on the wire, they'd be standing and walking on it again literally within minutes. This occurred during every pull, over the course of several days. Sometimes the foreman or senior electrician on the crew would echo my instructions (after I brought it to their attention), but nothing was done to correct the problem, and the crew would still be standing/walking on the wires minutes later.

Not all that unusual. I doubt it harmed the wire any, even if it is not the best of practices.

2. Some of the wire bundles were pulled into five runs of 4" PVC conduit that had been buried 15 years ago. At the time we opened the Christy box, all the ends of the conduit (entering the box horizontally, but sloped slightly downhill away from the box) were completely buried in sand and dirt that had washed into the box over the years. Although the bottom of the box was cleaned out by hand, the contractor never proofed the conduits. On the day of the pull, I wanted them to pull a duct swab or mandrel through the conduit to clear any dirt, sand, rocks, or other debris out of the conduit. The contractor didn't have the tools and didn't want to take the time, but I finally persuaded him to at least pull a terry cloth rag through the conduit to swab it. It brought out a lot of very muddy water, but no obvious large obstructions. After that, the contractor decided it was a waste of time, and didn't swab/proof the remaining conduits.

Again - what did the contract require?

3. The contractor brought a large Greenlee wire pulling machine (with LED tension indicators). But he only used it on one end of the conduit runs (where the conduit terminated inside our electrical utility shed). For the wire pulls out in the field, they used earth moving equipment (a back hoe excavator and a Bobcat) to pull the wire. They were never pulling the wire at more than one location at a time, so the only reason not to use the Greenlee wire puller for every run was to avoid the effort and time to move the puller to different pull locations on the job site. Furthermore, for at least some of the pulls, there was no skilled operator on site for the heavy machinery, so they had one of the temp workers running the hydraulic bucket to make the pull. They tied one end of the pull rope to the bucket (with no ability for the rope to slip if necessary to ease tension), and then he just pulled at the maximum speed that the bucket would operate. Then they'd stop, lower the bucket, re-tie the pull rope, and yank again.

Are you complaining about the workmanship or do you believe damage was done?

4. Even knowing that the existing conduits were filled with brackish water (our property is behind a levy with salt water on the other side), the contractor did not seal any of the ends of the wire before pulling them. I expressed my concern about the salty water entering the spaces between the strands via the cable ends, but he blew me off.

From one of Southwire's wire installation publications, I know that #2 and #4 are wrong. But I can't find any documentation to support my position that walking on the wire insulation, and pulling wire with earth-moving equipment are against industry best-practices. But it's my opinion that those things are not mentioned only because it violates common sense and every professional should know not to do such things.

is common sense in the contract anywhere?

I'd like to solicit feedback from the many experienced and respected electricians, engineers, and inspectors in this forum. Am I being overly-concerned? Or am I correct in believing that our contractor's cost-cutting measures are putting us at risk for future failed conductors? I am advising the facility owner to at least have all the conductors meggered by a third-party electrician to check for insulation damage, but he needs "ammo" to justify forcing the contractor to pay for that additional expense.

How will meggering conductors that are in a PVC conduit do any good? In any case, why would it need to be done by a 3rd party? Why don't you do it if you think it needs doing?

it seems to me that most of this stuff are contractual matters that you are trying to change after the fact because you think the work should have been done in a different way.
 
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