Porch Light

[marti smith]

Would one not be able to retract the wires from the hole they proceed through, reroute them through one of the other holes (or the center one, inconveniently located right behind where the lamp will be) and use the outlet box as it should be? If there isn't a cover/shade for the luminaire, it's a crummy design to be sure.

 

[Little Bill]

I knew you couldnt flip the backplate over make everything happy, just throwing out useless suggestions for a solution that we all probably know is not there. Sorry.

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[Little Bill]

Trying to go to page 2.

 

[jap]

Trying to go to page 2.

I'm just saying if I had no choice but to install this particular fixture, although it lacks some desirable mounting options, I would of wired it, mounted it on the wall and gone on without giving it a second thought.

 

[Little Bill]

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Trying to go to page 2.

I'm just saying if I had no choice but to install this particular fixture, although it lacks some desirable mounting options, I would of wired it, mounted it on the wall and gone on without giving it a second thought.

I actually wasn't replying to your (or anyone's) post. Sometimes the forum site acts strange and shows there is a 2nd page (if you set the page for 20 posts per page). When you click on page 2 it goes back to the first or OP. I have found that when this happens you have to post in the thread to get the 2nd page to show up.:?:happysad:
So my posts were just to get the 2nd page to appear.
Sorry for the confusion!

 

[kwired]

I have two concerns about this fixture: one technical and one practical.

"Technically," your connections are to be in a box, or in the fixture. The space between the fixture and the wall isn't allowed to 'make a box' any more.

In practical terms ... what happens if there IS a box? As shown in my first pic, the back plate attaches firm to the box. Just how are the wires to enter the box? Are we to gouge a 'trench' in the wall and enter through a KO, or are we to pinch the wires between the box and the back plate? The fixture has no provision to stand the fixture off from the box.

In your first pic you are attaching to the box and not to a box that is flush with a larger surface. If the box is flush in a surface the supply leads will not get pinched as there is what looks like at least a 1/4 maybe 3/8 inch area in the back of that fixture. I have seen many wall and ceiling fixtures both indoor and outdoor that are like that, and there have been a lot of them designed that way for many years. I don't like it but often wondered if there is a problem if mounted on a combustible surface.

Try to mount these types on a surface mounted box or even on an unfinished wall or ceiling and you have the problem you are having and showed in your first pic.

 

[jap]

In your first pic you are attaching to the box and not to a box that is flush with a larger surface. If the box is flush in a surface the supply leads will not get pinched as there is what looks like at least a 1/4 maybe 3/8 inch area in the back of that fixture. I have seen many wall and ceiling fixtures both indoor and outdoor that are like that, and there have been a lot of them designed that way for many years. I don't like it but often wondered if there is a problem if mounted on a combustible surface.

Try to mount these types on a surface mounted box or even on an unfinished wall or ceiling and you have the problem you are having and showed in your first pic.

Why would there be a problem with it being mounted on a combustible surface?
I dont see the issue with the termination part either. The connection would be in the box, the wires are plenty long. There would be no reason to wirenut the fixture wiring to the house wiring in the void behind the fixture. If you didnt want to run the wiring behind the fixture, I guess you could get one of those 4/0 cross bars with the 3/8" nipple in the center and run the fixture wires in the lamp compartment then through the nipple to the outlet box if the temp rating of the wire was acceptable.

I guess I just dont understand what the big deal is.

If I had this many concerns about the practical and technical issues of a fixture, I would not install it.

 

[kwired]

Why would there be a problem with it being mounted on a combustible surface?
I dont see the issue with the termination part either. The connection would be in the box, the wires are plenty long. There would be no reason to wirenut the fixture wiring to the house wiring in the void behind the fixture. If you didnt want to run the wiring behind the fixture, I guess you could get one of those 4/0 cross bars with the 3/8" nipple in the center and run the fixture wires in the lamp compartment then through the nipple to the outlet box if the temp rating of the wire was acceptable.

I guess I just dont understand what the big deal is.

If I had this many concerns about the practical and technical issues of a fixture, I would not install it.

The surface it is mounted on effectively becomes part of the box. I think there should be a back plate that mounts flat on the wall/ceiling, some luminaires do have such a back plate, usually they are long and narrow, circular fixtures never have such a plate no matter how large they may be. Years ago almost all walls/ceilings were plaster and non combustible finish and was not really a problem should something go wrong.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The fact is if the fixture is listed and doesn't state not to be mounted on combustible surfaces then I would not loose sleep over it and it would be compliant. I would however, make darn sure the splices were contained in the box. We also know an inspector has a right, I believe to question and not accept a listed product.

 

[renosteinke]

I suppose that what confused me was the multiple KO's on the fixture, arranged to match various boxes. I saw this as implying I was supposed to attach the fixture to the box.

Now, mounting this fixture on a flat wall, and leaving that large gap between the back plate and the box judt doesn't seem right. I'm then using the back plate as a spring to hold the fixture in place. With the 'keyhole' solts, it's too easy to then knock the fixture aside. I have this bias in favor of wanting to attach things tight against the box.

Had the fixture come with a little bracket I probably would not have been confused. Had the mounting holes not been so clearly arranged to fit a box I would not have been confused.

Had the mounting holes been located around the cord exit, installation would have been a delight.

I can't re-route the wires because the bulb gets in the way.

I've made other arrangements for the porch; what am I to do with the three lights I bought?

Well, I see no way to 'properly' instal them. I'll use them as lights inside my storage shed, where I can run my pipe and boxes around the outside, and feed just the individual wires out the back of the boxand through a hole in the wall, making my connections in the space behind the back of the fixture. If I do it right, the mounting screws won't be anywhere near the boxes at all. (The shed lighting is powered by an extension cord, only as needed).

 

[jap]

I do agree with you that its a poor design not to have a backing Plate that you could mount solidly to the box against the wall then mount the fixture over the backing plate so the wiring could run between the fixture and the backing plate instead of between the fixture and the wall.

These are the type of designs that I cuss at for a few minutes and then install them anyway.

 

[kwired]

I don't understand why some have such a problem with this, that is how over 90 percent of flat surface mount luminaires are designed. Many have a bracket that mounts on the outlet box but the luminaire is still supported from that bracket in a similar fashion.

 

[Cavie]

I don't understand why some have such a problem with this, that is how over 90 percent of flat surface mount luminaires are designed. Many have a bracket that mounts on the outlet box but the luminaire is still supported from that bracket in a similar fashion.

I agree, mount this fixture on a noncombustible wall and all is good. Mount this on a wood wall and all is bad. No different than the 1,000's of ceiling lights I've installed over the years. I'ts just the line up of the mounting holes vs. the wire location that has all your brains a twitter. Think of a 12" x 12" porch light ceiling mounted.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I agree, mount this fixture on a noncombustible wall and all is good. Mount this on a wood wall and all is bad. No different than the 1,000's of ceiling lights I've installed over the years. I'ts just the line up of the mounting holes vs. the wire location that has all your brains a twitter. Think of a 12" x 12" porch light ceiling mounted.

What prohibits it from being mounted on a wood surface?

 

[kwired]

What prohibits it from being mounted on a wood surface?

I don't know of anything that does, but if you don't use an approved outlet box for same installation everyone will go on about how dangerous that is, if a wire connector should get hot it could ignite the wood, but an over sized canopy that still allows similar exposure to a combustible surface is just fine That one has always made me wonder why things are the way they are.