whole House surge protector requires breaker to be top left space? I DOUBT IT!

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PetrosA

PetrosA

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, Pennsylvania
templdl said:
Then I would think that it would be a no brainer for a manufacturer who does not have such a requirement would be guaranteed a market all to themselves. If such a product was available those who believe that the necessity to install an SPD next to the main is bogus and snake oil would be buying a product that doesn't have the requirement. I'm not aware that there is a manufacturer of an SPD that doesn't have this requirement.
Other that trying to make the installers life miserable why would a manufacturer want to irritate their customers with this install requirement if it doesn't improve its performance?
I'm just trying to justify why manufacturers included this as an installation requirement if there is no competitive advantage, it is not an NEC requirement other than art 110-3-b, and may not be a UL requirement unless it has been included in getting the product UL listed.
Either it is an important requirement or it's bogus. The what advantage woud there be for the manufacturer to include such a requirement? If there is no logical reason what would be the purpose be other than to irritate customers such as the number of posts this subject has generated?
Click to expand...

I just looked at the instructions for all the Eaton SPDs, resi, commercial and industrial, on their website (locally available). Only one model "recommends" placing the breaker near the main, but allows placement anywhere practicable, including subpanels. None of the other models even mention placement of the breaker. Where did you see this requirement?
 
G

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
121015-0853 EDT

See hurk's post at #11.

Hurk has a very logical reason for the required breaker location. If the specified location is not used, then it possibly relieves the manufacturer of responsibility for damaged equipment in the house.

.
 
Fulthrotl

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Location
HB, CA (19 Hrs. 22 Min. from Winged Horses)
Occupation
E
gar said:
See hurk's post at #11.

Hurk has a very logical reason for the required breaker location. If the specified location is not used,
then it possibly relieves the manufacturer of responsibility for damaged equipment in the house.
Click to expand...

that is exactly why it's specified. and it can't be under a foot away.
and it must be commissioned on valentines day. and it must face
east, and be the first thing on the property that the sun strikes
on the winter solstice.

and it must be degaussed every six months with a lucky rabbit's foot.
in january, it must be with the left foot, and in july with the right foot.
except on leap years.

and the rabbit must be alive. the rabbit must also be UL approved for
the purpose. deviating from these instructions voids the warranty,
insurance, and the rabbits self esteem... and will cause sub space
field harmonics to cause the milk in the refrigerator to sour.

i watched the video. the claim that the theta of a residence is .78
i find interesting. much of a residential load is resistive. ballasts
are corrected to .95 or so. the big thing in a house is A/C, and i
find it difficult to believe that modern A/C units have a poor enough
power factor to get to .78 given their percentage of the load,
and that most of them are power factor corrected above .90,
as energy stars aren't given for sucky power factor.

so, we have nothing much worse than .90 in a residence,
offset by a significant resistive load to soften the phase angle,
and we are all the way down to .78? and even if there was
this enormously reactive load... say, the starship enterprise's
photon cannon, with a power factor of .22, the only way to
correct the power factor effectively would be to put the
capacitors on the device, so the capacitors would be powered
up when the device was powered up, not all the time.

otherwise, when not using the inefficient photon cannon,
the caps would overcorrect the power factor, making it leading
instead of lagging, and your KVAR's would be as bad when
NOT using the load.

and you'd have to have a service capable of measuring the
demand factor, so a rate adjustment would be possible for
this device to have any money saving value at all.

the part that always leaves me laughing, is that if the power
factor is extremely poor, it means you are being billed for
true power, while consuming more volt amps, and the reactive
power you are consuming you are not paying for. so correcting
power factor saves only the utility company money.

and public utilities don't address power factor below the 400
amp service level around here, 'cause it doesn't matter to them.
there isn't enough money in it to justify the cost of determining
the phase angle for rate adjustment.
 
B

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
well said. i'll head down to Centex and pick up my rabbit today.

Innovative Energy Solutions
Model A1-150SP Owner?s Manual
Read these instructions before use. Save this manual
WARNING:
1. Opening the unit without prior permission from Eastern Eco Power LLC will void its warranty coverage.
Contact Eastern Eco Power LLC at 1-866-324-8534 if you have any questions.
2. IMPORTANT! This unit must be connected directly to a dedicated circuit breaker. Do not, under any circumstances,
hard-wire install without a dedicated breaker!
3. Apply this unit to 240V AC, 50/60Hz, single phase residential load only.
4. The unit must be mounted vertically, in a dry location, using the four mounting holes.
5. The unit must be installed by a certified electrician in compliance with local electrical codes.
YOU WILL NEED:
1. A dedicated, 2-pole, 20Amp, circuit breaker.
2. Appropriate tools.
3. A certified electrician for installation.
MOUNTING THE PCU (A1-150SP)
1. Inspect the exterior of the unit to insure that it has not been damaged in transit. Ensure that the front label/
overlay is still intact, that the warranty seals are intact, and that the cables protruding from the unit have not
been damaged.
2. Mount the unit to a clean, dry wall near the power panel. The unit should be close enough to connect to the
panel using the cable length provided, but at least one foot away from the power panel. DO NOT UNDER
ANY CONDITIONS SPLICE NEW CABLE ONTO THE UNIT, OR OPEN THE UNIT, TO EXTEND
THE LENGTH OF CABLE PROVIDED. When mounted, the power indication lights should be
visible.
3. Run conduit (according to code) between the conduit connector on the box, and the power panel, and feed
the connection cables through the conduit into the power panel.
INSTALLATION PROCEDURES:
1. If possible, de-energize the power panel prior to connection of the PCU unit.
2. Install the circuit breaker onto the top left breaker, rearrange other breakers if needed so that the PCU is
attached to the top left breaker. If not installed on the top left breaker warranty will be void (see warranty
information included).
3. Connect the two (2) black wires to the circuit breaker, the ground cable (green) to the ground bar, and the
neutral cable (white) to the neutral bar, as shown in the diagram on back.
TEST PROCEDURES:
1. Energize the power panel
2. Close the circuit breaker leading to the PCU unit.
3. Check if the power indicator lights are on:
If NO - De-energize the unit and check if the cables are connected correctly.
Check the ground cable connections. If problem persists, call
Eastern Eco Power at 1-866-324-8534.
4. Keep these instructions near the unit for future use.
RATINGS:
Voltage: 240V AC, 1-Phase, 50/60Hz
Configuration: 3-wire plus ground
Capacitance: 40μf
Line current: 1.8 A at 240V AC
Installation Diagram
Visit us at www.EasternEcoPower.com
Innovative Energy Solutions


Please note this post is about number 2 of Installation Procedures.

side note. see first #4 at top "using four mounting holes"... there are only TWO mounting holes!
 
B

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
also they HAVE already approved my mounting it upside down, because the four foot leads would not allow me to even reach the top breaker!!!
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
templdl said:
OK, now that it has been understood that mounting the SPD next to the main is recommended but not required where do we go from here?
What's the point? Is this much to do about nothing?
Click to expand...

Did you read the installations instuctions in post #24? Especially this one!

2. Install the circuit breaker onto the top left breaker, rearrange other breakers if needed so that the PCU is
attached to the top left breaker. If not installed on the top left breaker warranty will be void (see warranty
information included).
Click to expand...

It is very clear that they are making absurd requirements hoping you will not follow them and give them a reason to void the warranty.
 
T

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Little Bill said:
Did you read the installations instuctions in post #24? Especially this one!



It is very clear that they are making absurd requirements hoping you will not follow them and give them a reason to void the warranty.
Click to expand...

OK, back to square one. For what reason would they make that an installation requirement? It certainly isn't a competitive advantage. If they elected to omit that requirement because of the installation issues why wouldn't they?
As with one my previous posts there are those who say that the installation requirements are bogus and if so you could corner the market be providing a SPD that could be installed in any position in the panel. Problem solved, you would have countless customer and be able to retire in a short time unless you are forced to share your new found wealth.
 
G

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
121016-1441 EDT

templdl:

hurk suggested that a possible logical reason for such an installation requirement was ---

in many installations that physical position requirement would be ignored, and thus a way for the supplier or manufacturer to claim the warranty was void because of improper installation.

.
 
T

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
gar said:
121016-1441 EDT

templdl:

hurk suggested that a possible logical reason for such an installation requirement was ---

in many installations that physical position requirement would be ignored, and thus a way for the supplier or manufacturer to claim the warranty was void because of improper installation.

.
Click to expand...

Understood.
As such if it were to be impractical to rearrange the breakers so that one could install the SPD in the location that the manufacture instructions state then that is what the issue is. In my personal panel I simply relocated the breakers. Of course in my installation I have always looped the conductors such that they are long enough to relocate a breaker anywhere on one side of the panel but could be relocated to a limited degree on the other side without splicing the conductors with a wire nut.
I guess what it amounts to is it possible to relocate or rearrange the breakers to allow compliance with the instructions? If not then one may be of the belief that it doesn't really matter where the SPD is installed and on the rare occasion should there be an incident cross that bridge when you need to.
But a competitor would certainly have an advantage it they promoted that their SPD could be located anywhere on the panel without a loss of protection.
 
W

WesR

Member
Location
Phoenix, AZ, USA
templdl said:
Understood.
As such if it were to be impractical to rearrange the breakers so that one could install the SPD in the location that the manufacture instructions state then that is what the issue is. In my personal panel I simply relocated the breakers. Of course in my installation I have always looped the conductors such that they are long enough to relocate a breaker anywhere on one side of the panel but could be relocated to a limited degree on the other side without splicing the conductors with a wire nut.
I guess what it amounts to is it possible to relocate or rearrange the breakers to allow compliance with the instructions? If not then one may be of the belief that it doesn't really matter where the SPD is installed and on the rare occasion should there be an incident cross that bridge when you need to.
But a competitor would certainly have an advantage it they promoted that their SPD could be located anywhere on the panel without a loss of protection.
Click to expand...

That competitor might sell more units but they would go bankrupt from having to pay all their customers $25k when that piece of crap doesn't work. Customer installs in wrong place = don't have to pay customer for failure. Also, a lack of competitors in the market might be due to a lack of people interested in selling snake oil.
 
T

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
WesR said:
That competitor might sell more units but they would go bankrupt from having to pay all their customers $25k when that piece of crap doesn't work. Customer installs in wrong place = don't have to pay customer for failure. Also, a lack of competitors in the market might be due to a lack of people interested in selling snake oil.
Click to expand...

But on one hand there are those that don't agree with the SPD being installed next to the main because they think its a gimmick and on the other hand you state that it a competitor manufactures and sell a product that can be mounted anywhere then they would be exposed to many more warranty claims causing them to go bankrupt.

So, which is it? Either it doesn't matter where the SPD is located or it does matter.
Am I missing soething here or has this entire string of posts gone around in a circuit which no resolve.
 
H

hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
templdl said:
But on one hand there are those that don't agree with the SPD being installed next to the main because they think its a gimmick and on the other hand you state that it a competitor manufactures and sell a product that can be mounted anywhere then they would be exposed to many more warranty claims causing them to go bankrupt.

So, which is it? Either it doesn't matter where the SPD is located or it does matter.
Am I missing something here or has this entire string of posts gone around in a circuit which no resolve.
Click to expand...

templdl
When we understand how the impedance of a conductor changes in a high frequency event such as a lightning strike or a transient, we can see how little the much larger buss bars in a panel will have very little impedance from one end to the other, the connection point of the SPD's to this bussbar will make very little to no difference in the effect of the SPD's.

Now what is strange, this high frequency energy will increase the impedance of the much smaller wires between the SPD unit and the breaker, with this manufacture making the statement that they do not want the wires any shorter then 12" and the fact they come with 48" of leads which they seem to think is ok, goes against all theory's of how high frequency AC energy functions.

No other manufactures have any instructions like this, in fact quite the opposite, most come with 8-10" leads and the instructions tell you to only use as much as needed to reach the breaker, and even instruct you to mount the unit in a knock out as close to the breaker as possible, another words the shorter the better.

Who ever wrote these instructions does not have any concept of the theory of how high frequency AC current even works, and the fact that by design looking at the clamping levels of this unit "340 vac" it is likely a box with some generic MOV's and a capacitor which brings up the motive to void the warranty if you peek inside.

And the fact that they claim it will save you money on your electric bill all comes together to spell fraud.


I don't know why you can't see this?:?

Here is a passage that might help you:

A good tree will not bare forth evil fruit nether will a evil tree bare forth good fruit, by these ye shall know them.
 
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T

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
hurk27 said:
templdlAnd the fact that they claim it will save you money on your electric bill all comes together to spell fraud.

I don't know why you can't see this?:?

Here is a passage that might help you:

A good tree will not bare forth evil fruit nether will a evil tree bare forth good fruit, by these ye shall know them.
Click to expand...

"I don't know why you can't see this?" Let me make it cleae as is because it doesn't exist is why.

Now with regard to: "And the fact that they claim it will save you money on your electric bill all comes together to spell fraud."? Really? I may have missed some in regard to the OP but where does saving money on your electric bill apply? That's a new one.
I never had any knowledge of a product that we had that would save money on a residential electric bill. Yes, I don't see how I missed that.
But, thanks for you reference to: "A good tree will not bare forth evil fruit nether will a evil tree bare forth good fruit, by these ye shall know them." as it is aptly applied to your response as being a very good description of the substance of your reply. But I am always reminded and to be cautioned by Matthew 7:15 when considering a reply such as yours.
 
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