Rebar as CEE - lap splice required?

[kwired]

I would have guessed #4 bar and I would have guessed that this whole install is incorrect. Now the fact that you say they're going to lift it, yeah, maybe, once that concrete gets in there it's pretty tough to pull that up.

As far as a CEE goes, connect to the top horizontal piece, it is allowed to be part of the CEE.

As far as the bottom horizontal piece laying on bottom of trench, that's not the EC's problem, even though it is useless for reinforcing the concrete if it remains on the bottom.

 

[gndrod]

As far as a CEE goes, connect to the top horizontal piece, it is allowed to be part of the CEE.

As far as the bottom horizontal piece laying on bottom of trench, that's not the EC's problem, even though it is useless for reinforcing the concrete if it remains on the bottom.

I would mention that the minimum spacing for structural code concrete encapsulation is three (3) inches minimum. I wonder how the responsible GC can prove this is the case.

 

[jim dungar]

As far as the bottom horizontal piece laying on bottom of trench...

You should read the entire first post where the OP said:

(BTW - the bars will be lifted and fully encased in concrete when poured... not in conctact with the soil, just in case you were worried about that!)

 

[steve66]

The kind that gets scraped off before the clamp goes on. We had a terrible time keeping the framers or flat work guys from bending or cutting off the bar, so we have the paint it a bright color, to hopefully save it til later!

I think what gndrod is getting at is that you need 20' of rebar in contact with the concrete. If the rebar is sprayed with paint, it doesn't count toward the 20' because the paint will form a barrier between the rebar and the concrete.

Also, where you have 2 pieces of rebar lapped or held together with steel wire, the two pieces won't be electrically connected due to the paint.

 

[kwired]

You should read the entire first post where the OP said:

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I did, and that is why that post ended with "if it remains on the bottom".

I think what gndrod is getting at is that you need 20' of rebar in contact with the concrete. If the rebar is sprayed with paint, it doesn't count toward the 20' because the paint will form a barrier between the rebar and the concrete.

Also, where you have 2 pieces of rebar lapped or held together with steel wire, the two pieces won't be electrically connected due to the paint.

And if the "usual tie wires" allow for adding more length then you just need 20 feet of bar that is not painted somewhere in the run.

The only thing painted in the photo is a short section and it is not painted where it ties to other pieces. Removal of some paint would be necessary if that is where the the GEC is going to attach.

 

[jap]

I think that the Concrete Encased Electrode should be a 20' continous run of bare copper of appropriate size installed and stubbed up by the General Contractor prior to the pour and inspected by the Electrical Inspector on the Footing inspection.

Who knows what happens to the rebar connections once the concrete is poured or if the cross sections even remain in solid contact with each other?

There are times that the electrician is not even selected at this stage of the building process.

IMHO I just think this would resolve a lot of issues.

 

[cowboyjwc]

As far as a CEE goes, connect to the top horizontal piece, it is allowed to be part of the CEE.

As far as the bottom horizontal piece laying on bottom of trench, that's not the EC's problem, even though it is useless for reinforcing the concrete if it remains on the bottom.

Except that the code says that the CEE is supposed to be located near the bottom of the footing.

 

[infinity]

Where's the requirement for it being near the bottom?

 

[cowboyjwc]

Where's the requirement for it being near the bottom?

250.52(A)(3)-An electrode encased by at least 2" of concrete, located horizontally near the bottom......

 

[infinity]

What code version is that? Here's the 2011:

(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. A concrete-encased elec-
trode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either (1) or (2):
(1) One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electri-
cally conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of
not less than 13 mm (1⁄2 in.) in diameter, installed in one
continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length, or if in multiple pieces
connected together by the usual steel tie wires, exother-
mic welding, welding, or other effective means to create
a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater length; or
(2) Bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG
Metallic components shall be encased by at least 50 mm
(2 in.) of concrete and shall be located horizontally within
that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in di-
rect contact with the earth or within vertical foundations or
structural components or members that are in direct contact
with the earth. If multiple concrete-encased electrodes are
present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to
bond only one into the grounding electrode system.

 

[cowboyjwc]

What code version is that? Here's the 2011:

Well you're in the wrong code book, you need to be in the code that I'm enforcing and the fact that it has said what I said, back as far as '87,at least, and right up until the new code cycle, I guess.:happyno::happyyes:

 

[infinity]

I thought that I remembered a reference to the word bottom in that section but then I looked in the 2011 and couldn't find it. :roll:

 

[cowboyjwc]

Funny they took mention of ...near the bottom....out of the code, but they still refer to it in the handbook in EXHIBIT 250.23 on page 239.

 

[Jon456]

In my 2008 NEC it states:

(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased
by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located horizontally
near the bottom or vertically, and within that portion of a
concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with
the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more
bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive
coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm
(1⁄2 in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of
bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing
bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the
usual steel tie wires or other effective means. Where multiple
concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building
or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into
the grounding electrode system.​

I don't have a copy of the 2011 NEC.

 

[kwired]

I don't doubt that near the bottom is a better location to connect to, but the fact that you apparently can tie onto a vertical piece that sticks out the top of the footing would make a lot of controversy in the requirements don't you think?

I do try to get my GEC tied to the lower horizontal pieces whenever I can but it doesn't always happen that way. It doesn't help that most places where I work there is no building inspections. There is electrical inspections in quite a bit of the places I work but nobody is there to inspect footings, so the footing contractor often is in and out in a day and if I did not know they were coming I have a problem with connecting to a CEE.