Power company wants a main breaker (OCP) in panel that has a an OCP at the S.W.B.???

[realolman]

NYSE&G is fun, huh? For those of you who haven't had the displeasure of working with them, here's how their system works: If you have a question for a field planner, you call their main call center. They then transfer you to the planner's direct line. But if he's not at his desk (which he usually isn't since he's a FIELD planner) you leave him a message. Now let's say he returns your call but you're not there. He leaves you a message, but he's not supposed to leave you his extension to call him directly. So you now have to call the call center again and have them transfer you. And when he's again not at his desk . . . you guessed it, the whole circle starts again.

That doesn't seem too different from anyone else these days... I had a tech support guy tell me he couldn't talk to me any longer... that I'd have to leave my equipment down until later because he had to go to a meeting.
:?

we seem to be de-volving into some sorta bizzarro world

 

[Speshulk]

It's not NYSE&G . It's the Britain owned company. I prefer not to turn this into a N.G. bash.

Yeah, I guess Cuomo's done enough of that.

 

[Free Electron]

Still no meter. I talked to their main office who checked with an engineer and said yes, everything is installed correct, we will have someone there tomorrow. The same meter guy shows up the next day and asks did we install a main in the panel? and to make a long story short, left without installing the meter.
The owner was given a phone and number name and for me to call to straighten it out, talked to a different engineer and to make another long story short, I asked to please give me the NEC article or poco manual section that says I need a main breaker in the panel and I would be happy to comply. He's getting back to me.

 

[Speshulk]

Still no meter. I talked to their main office who checked with an engineer and said yes, everything is installed correct, we will have someone there tomorrow. The same meter guy shows up the next day and asks did we install a main in the panel? and to make a long story short, left without installing the meter.
The owner was given a phone and number name and for me to call to straighten it out, talked to a different engineer and to make another long story short, I asked to please give me the NEC article or poco manual section that says I need a main breaker in the panel and I would be happy to comply. He's getting back to me.

Perhaps the best way to go is to have the customer call the PSC. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

[kwired]

Still no meter. I talked to their main office who checked with an engineer and said yes, everything is installed correct, we will have someone there tomorrow. The same meter guy shows up the next day and asks did we install a main in the panel? and to make a long story short, left without installing the meter.
The owner was given a phone and number name and for me to call to straighten it out, talked to a different engineer and to make another long story short, I asked to please give me the NEC article or poco manual section that says I need a main breaker in the panel and I would be happy to comply. He's getting back to me.

That is just ridiculous, sounds like you need to become a real PITA for the guys supervisor, until something is done. If I were in your shoes and was in violation of POCO metering standards, then that is one thing, and I would hope I would be asking them why I haven't received the metering standards earlier in the game, but there is no NEC violation here.

Is there other meters installed in this facility, or is this the first one or just what is the deal here?

 

[Free Electron]

Perhaps the best way to go is to have the customer call the PSC. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

This might be my next approach. I sent an email to another Representative, we will see were this goes.

[ Name]
Please acknowledge you received this so I know it was sent properly and foward it to the proper person in charge.

This email is to clarify the NEC conditions and requirements to allow the use of a main lug only panel suppling a new store in lieu of a main breaker panel.

The attached 2011 NEC articles 240, Overcurrent Protection, 240.24(1) , states the service and feeder OCP device can be remote from occupant space in a multiple -occupancy building if under the supervision of the building management. The [ name] location meets all these requirements.

The 408 Switchboard and Panel article, 408.36 states the OCP device can be at or any point on the supply side of the panel. Further more it states it may be an integral part of the panel or remote. The purpose is to protect the feeders from the source out to the panel. The premise in question meets all these requirements, having a OCP in the main switchboard, that is properly sized for the conductors and panel used.
I have also attached a copy of the AHJ approval of the installation, who has contacted a fellow electrical inspector that confirms the installation is correct and complies with the NEC.

I have also researched National Grids Specifications for electrical installations- Bulletin 750 and have found no reference to needing a main breaker or any OCP device in a panel when one is provided for at the switchboard.

In conclusion, since all requirements have been meet, I see no reason why we are being denied having the power turned on and request a meter be installed ASAP.

Please feel free for you or the supervisor for this project to contact me and solve this on going delay and hardship for my customer.

[Signed]

 

[Hv&Lv]

You have got to be kidding. You still don't have a meter since Monday? I believe my next move would be here:http://www3.dps.ny.gov/W/PSCWeb.nsf/All/B40C096675BE10C085257687006F39E7?OpenDocument

 

[kwired]

You have got to be kidding. You still don't have a meter since Monday? I believe my next move would be here:http://www3.dps.ny.gov/W/PSCWeb.nsf/All/B40C096675BE10C085257687006F39E7?OpenDocument

Even if you do that, you could still be in for a wait, you need to become a thorn in side of the supervisor for the guy that will not install the meter especially if that person doesn't want to see the codes you present as evidence for you being correct. Letting them know the PSC has been informed of the situation may help you. Unless they feel you are totally wrong, you may have to make them give in just to shut you up, or at very least open some books or contact others to find out who is right so they can stop you from being a pest.

Maybe even notify State level AHJ representatives, whoever that may be of the situation just to see what they may be able to do to convince POCO there is no code violations.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Even if you do that, you could still be in for a wait, you need to become a thorn in side of the supervisor for the guy that will not install the meter especially if that person doesn't want to see the codes you present as evidence for you being correct. Letting them know the PSC has been informed of the situation may help you. Unless they feel you are totally wrong, you may have to make them give in just to shut you up, or at very least open some books or contact others to find out who is right so they can stop you from being a pest.

Maybe even notify State level AHJ representatives, whoever that may be of the situation just to see what they may be able to do to convince POCO there is no code violations.

True. I believe the problem now is they are in a standoff to see which one has to give in. It is a matter of pride now. If I had to bet, I would bet on Free electron winning this one...

 

[Speshulk]

True. I believe the problem now is they are in a standoff to see which one has to give in. It is a matter of pride now. If I had to bet, I would bet on Free electron winning this one...

How do others handle situations like this? It's always been my thinking that we, as contractors, are similar to agents of the customer. We are hired to construct the system that the utility company connects to for the customer to utilize their product. When the utility won't allow the customer to do what the customer wishes, I feel that it's up to the customer to deal with the utility, since it's the customer that's being denied service, not me.

What I'm basically getting at is that I don't think this is FreeElectron's fight. As long as he did the job according to plan and code and it passed inspection, his burden is done.

 

[Smart $]

... I don't think this is FreeElectron's fight. As long as he did the job according to plan and code and it passed inspection, his burden is done.

What if it was his plan???

 

[kwired]

What if it was his plan???

Very good point. If it was not his plan, then whoever the designer was is now part of the issue. The designer may not have been wrong, but they still need to defend their design.

 

[Speshulk]

What if it was his plan???

When I mentioned it being done to plan, I was referring more to his relationship with the customer. This job passed inspection, so as long as it follows the plan, he's done what he was hired by the customer to do, no matter who designed the job.

 

[Smart $]

When I mentioned it being done to plan, I was referring more to his relationship with the customer. This job passed inspection, so as long as it follows the plan, he's done what he was hired by the customer to do, no matter who designed the job.

To throw one's hands up in the air and drop it in the customer's lap is very poor professionalism any way you look at it. The customer contracted one or more parties to get service established. The means is irrelevant to the customer.

 

[Speshulk]

To throw one's hands up in the air and drop it in the customer's lap is very poor professionalism any way you look at it. The customer contracted one or more parties to get service established. The means is irrelevant to the customer.

I'm not saying throw his hands up in the air. It seems as though he's done quite a bit on behalf of the customer, but at the end of the day, it's the customer's issue since they're the one being denied service by the utility.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I'm not saying throw his hands up in the air. It seems as though he's done quite a bit on behalf of the customer, but at the end of the day, it's the customer's issue since they're the one being denied service by the utility.

True, but the customer hired the electrician to do the job to get service at his building. Service is being denied for what seems like silly reasons. Now the customer must rely on the electrician and his professionialism to fix the problem and/or get him service at his building.

The customer doesn't know much about the goings on between the electrician and the POCO. I believe the electrician is gaining in reputation by not abandoning the customer, especially in this instance.

 

[Free Electron]

True, but the customer hired the electrician to do the job to get service at his building. Service is being denied for what seems like silly reasons. Now the customer must rely on the electrician and his professionialism to fix the problem and/or get him service at his building.

The customer doesn't know much about the goings on between the electrician and the POCO. I believe the electrician is gaining in reputation by not abandoning the customer, especially in this instance.

I'm back , I only have time to monitor the thread from time to time, so I can't always comment on peoples responses. Here's where we are.

-This is my design, no engineer involved.
-No meter as of this date.
- I had another conversation with a different POCO Representative, for a least a hour this morning. He was trying to get it solved and told me he will go to someone who actually worked on N.G. Bulletin 750 and ask his opinion.
- I have opened a case with the PSC. Crossing my fingers to hopefully come to a conclusion soon.
-This is a good customer and I need to get him power,regardless of the poco demands. He has been understanding so far. Bottom line is you need to preform and provide good reliable service or they call in the next guy. Hell, I've obtained my some of my best customers that way.
The Saga continues.

 

[kwired]

Again, where is the "service point" and where is a copy of their metering standards?

This issue should have come up earlier in the process here.

What about the other occupancies served from same panelboard? I presume in a similar fashion.

What business is it of POCO to know what is beyond their meter, other than the load demand?

 

[Free Electron]

Again, where is the "service point" and where is a copy of their metering standards?

Believe me, I have tried to explain to them where the service point is. They also can't pin point where in their own Electrical Installation specifications #750 manual it says to provide a OCP in the store panel.

This issue should have come up earlier in the process here.

What about the other occupancies served from same panel board? I presume in a similar fashion.
The main Switchboard feeds other stores also, unfortunately for me they all have main breakers in the panel boards along with the OCP at SWB.

What business is it of POCO to know what is beyond their meter, other than the load demand?

The AHJ said the same thing

 

[pete m.]

I think I understand the set-up you have.

If it's the meter technicians concern that he must have the ability to de-energize the meter socket prior to installation what good would a OCPD do on the load side of the meter do short of removing the load... the circuit would still be energized unless the OCPD were opened at the main board.

Guess I'm confused as to what the meter tech is looking to accomplish.

Pete