Knob and Tube Testing

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sethas

Member
Location
Los Banos, CA.
I've been wondering if any of the resi guys ever test knob and tube wiring with an insulation tester? Would you even want to, or would it cause to much stress to the wiring? Would you use a simple go/no go test?

Looking for a better way to deal with the knob and tube, other than a visual inspection. I've never tested older wiring before. I've only tested new stuff at the time of installation, and that was just on commercial and industrial applications.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I've been wondering if any of the resi guys ever test knob and tube wiring with an insulation tester? Would you even want to, or would it cause to much stress to the wiring? Would you use a simple go/no go test?

Looking for a better way to deal with the knob and tube, other than a visual inspection. I've never tested older wiring before. I've only tested new stuff at the time of installation, and that was just on commercial and industrial applications.

My question is what is it going to stress? If there is any question in the results of the testing, who cares about any stress, something requires action. If the K&T was installed and maintained properly, there is not much that can be stressed. You are likely only going to be testing to 1000 V max, if you were testing to 10kV or more maybe there would be some more to consider.
 

sethas

Member
Location
Los Banos, CA.
I'm not the most familiar person to insulation testing. When we used to do it, we would record the readings to see if there was something wrong and to make a starting point for future tests. I just started reading about this again, and was under the assumption that the test could harm the insulation of the wiring, if the wiring was older. Is this not the case at the 1000v level?
 

G._S._Ohm

Senior Member
Location
DC area
I'd think it would pass with bare wires unless they are touching ground. The porcelain does the insulating.

How can you have two replies with zero views?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I'm not the most familiar person to insulation testing. When we used to do it, we would record the readings to see if there was something wrong and to make a starting point for future tests. I just started reading about this again, and was under the assumption that the test could harm the insulation of the wiring, if the wiring was older. Is this not the case at the 1000v level?

If it harms the insulation aren't you going to see that in the readings?

If you have two conductors supported by porcelain devices and nothing else between them but air, there is no good reason there should ever be a problem even if the conductors were bare. There is increased risk of objects contacting the bare conductors and becoming energized.

The only thing your test is going to tell you is what kind of conductivity you have between the two points you connect the tester to.
If you have an undesired test result, then it is up to you to determine why you have that result.

If the K&T doesn't contact any foreign objects it wasn't intended to contact you should get the same test results if the conductors were bare as you would if they were insulated, wouldn't you think? Based on that what is there to be stressed?
 

sethas

Member
Location
Los Banos, CA.
I was under the impression that this test would tell you the quality to the insulation on the wiring, no? I thought it would give you some indication of the quality of the insulation covering the conductor. Is this not the case?

Step away from the my question on "stress" for a moment, you have to bear with me here as I am trying to get a clearer understanding of this.

Can someone explain to me why you perform that test? Is it to test the quality of the insulating material around the conductor?

How do you get the same results with or without insulation? Now I'm just getting confused...thanks for the reply though!
 

sethas

Member
Location
Los Banos, CA.
So this will tell me about bad and faulty splices or terminations then, correct?

But it won't tell me if insulation has been compromised on wiring in, lets say, a part of an attic that you can't access?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Almost all K&T wiring around here is in violation as it has been covered with insulation. I wonder whether it would pass an insulation test. The only reason I believe it would be okay is because generally there is very little load on those circuits.
 

bullheimer

Senior Member
Location
WA
i agree with the first sentence in your last post, dennis. and disagree with the last. unless you added new circuits to unload them. i find they are almost always overloaded and over fused as a result. i am a big fan on leaving K&T in a house when it has been unloaded, fused properly, and is not covered in insulation (good luck) and the insulation of the wire is in good shape. i mean look at that insulation! it's like 3/16's thick! industrial strength in todays world. can't imagine why there are ins. companies that wont insure a house because it has K&T! i think it's the most bullet proof form of wiring i have every seen, when in its virgin state. Does this mean i'm old?
 
Last edited:

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The company my brother works for no longer insulates around K&T. They had enough instances of fires within a few days. K&T is replaced or no insulation goes in those areas. No option.
That is very responsible of the company however I would bet it is not the norm.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I was under the impression that this test would tell you the quality to the insulation on the wiring, no? I thought it would give you some indication of the quality of the insulation covering the conductor. Is this not the case?

Step away from the my question on "stress" for a moment, you have to bear with me here as I am trying to get a clearer understanding of this.

Can someone explain to me why you perform that test? Is it to test the quality of the insulating material around the conductor?

How do you get the same results with or without insulation? Now I'm just getting confused...thanks for the reply though!

So this will tell me about bad and faulty splices or terminations then, correct?

But it won't tell me if insulation has been compromised on wiring in, lets say, a part of an attic that you can't access?

First you need to understand the megger a little better. A megger is just an ohmmeter that uses a higher voltage source for measuring resistance.

If you want to test insulation integrity of conductors in a piece of cord, you can connect the megger to two different leads and press the test button. If there is a really high reading this means the insulation is in good condition for the particular voltage you used to make the test. If there is damage to the individual conductor insulation on just one conductor you may still get a similar reading, damage of insulation of both conductors still will not likely yield a bad reading, but put some conductive contaminants between them and now you may have a high resistance path, but low enough the megger can push some current through it at whatever your test voltage is.

With metal sheathed cables and metallic raceways, you have the conductors in contact with the sheath or raceway that is grounded. If you apply a test voltage of at least the same level as operating voltage you will have some idea of condition of conductor insulation in relation to the possibility of developing a fault path to the raceway or sheath. Testing at a voltage above normal operating voltage is often done to get some predictive maintenance data, or even a simple pass/fail result.

With the knob and tube, you can still meg between conductors, but lets assume for a minute that the circuit you are testing is installed properly, has not been buried in thermal insulation or other debris, and is still attached to all the knobs, there is not much chance of anything to create a conductive path between the two conductors. So if you meg it and get a poor result, you know for certain there is something to be concerned about. But if you meg it and get a good result, you really have no idea what condition the actual insulation is in, you just know you don't have a path between the two conductors.

Go hang a couple bare wires on porcelain insulators and keep them maintained at least 4 inches apart, then connect your megger leads one to each of the bare wires. As long as there is no conductive dusts or other coatings on the porcelain insulators to create a conductive path they will test good even though they are bare. Now spray the test installation down with water and meg it. You will likely get a lower resistance but will increase as things dry out.
 

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Isn't megging old residential wiring kind of dangerous (for the homeowner's items still connected)? Yes, you should disconnect everything, but how can you know what is connected where in a house that has probably been rewired multiple times by who knows how qualified of people, where the panel schedules are usually wrong, and no one is perfect about getting ALL the equipment disconnected.

Should be megger be limited to 600V for residential wiring?
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
I thought Megger tests performed above normal operating voltage destroy GFCI devices.

Also thought most Insulation Testers are DC, so Megger's with a 50 or 100 volt setting are preferred.
100v DC / 0.707 = 141v AC.

Isn'tl 600vac insulation also damaged above 500v DC / 0.707 = 707v AC
 

broadgage

Senior Member
Location
London, England
I cant see any harm in the insulation testing of knob and tube wiring, if it is in such poor condition that that the test damages it, then replacement is due and is arguably overdue.
Any common wiring system intended for any normal utilisation voltage should easily withstand testing at 1,000 volts DC.

On the other hand insulation testing may not reveal dangerous faults, wire from which all the insulation has fallen off will still pass, provided it is not touching grounded articles.
Improper alterations and additions often pass.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I cant see any harm in the insulation testing of knob and tube wiring, if it is in such poor condition that that the test damages it, then replacement is due and is arguably overdue.
Any common wiring system intended for any normal utilisation voltage should easily withstand testing at 1,000 volts DC.

On the other hand insulation testing may not reveal dangerous faults, wire from which all the insulation has fallen off will still pass, provided it is not touching grounded articles.
Improper alterations and additions often pass.

That is what I have been trying to get across to the OP.

The megger does test the conductor insulation - to an extent. K&T wiring has additional inherent insulation, the porcelain devices it is supported by, and physical separation. Individual conductors could be bare and still pass a meg test because of the additional inherent insulation.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I thought Megger tests performed above normal operating voltage destroy GFCI devices.

Also thought most Insulation Testers are DC, so Megger's with a 50 or 100 volt setting are preferred.
100v DC / 0.707 = 141v AC.

Isn'tl 600vac insulation also damaged above 500v DC / 0.707 = 707v AC

If you apply 500 VDC you get 500 volts max. If you apply 500 V RMS AC then the peak of the wave will be higher but RMS or effective DC equivalent is still 500.

Because you are applying a test signal that is higher than normal operating voltage, yes you should remove any devices that may be sensitive to the higher voltage from the circuit before testing.
 
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