Single family dwelling service

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smallfish

Senior Member
Location
Detroit
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Without the photo that I have just tried to attach, the following description of a residential service panel arrangement may or may not make sense.

There is an existing 60 amp, 6 circuit service panel on the left, in the middle a 30 amp service panel whose load is an individual branch circuit that feeds the two circuits below it and a counter top range, and to the right the "service disconnect" for the air conditioner. All three service entrance conductors originate from the same meter mounted outdoors.

Besides the obvious cable connector and plug overfusing violations are there any other glaring violations. I myself wonder if the middle 30 amp panel allows the use of both the two plug fuseholders and use of the individual countertop range branch circuit wires. I do not know the rating of the countertop range.

Thanks
 
LEO2854

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
smallfish said:
View attachment 7855

Without the photo that I have just tried to attach, the following description of a residential service panel arrangement may or may not make sense.

There is an existing 60 amp, 6 circuit service panel on the left, in the middle a 30 amp service panel whose load is an individual branch circuit that feeds the two circuits below it and a counter top range, and to the right the "service disconnect" for the air conditioner. All three service entrance conductors originate from the same meter mounted outdoors.

Besides the obvious cable connector and plug overfusing violations are there any other glaring violations. I myself wonder if the middle 30 amp panel allows the use of both the two plug fuseholders and use of the individual countertop range branch circuit wires. I do not know the rating of the countertop range.

Thanks
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I hope they will let you do an upgrade...:thumbsup:
 
R

RUWired

Senior Member
Location
Pa.
Is there a grounding electrode conductor for the middle and right side service panels and is the main bonding jumper screw in the middle panel green.
 
R

RUWired

Senior Member
Location
Pa.
K8MHZ said:
How does that work?

Doesn't that violate the one service per household rule?
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230.40 exception # 2, would allow the additional mains. How there connected at the meter could be a problem. Would be nice to see a snap shot of that!!


230.40 Number of Service-Entrance Conductor Sets.
Each service drop or lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors.

Exception No. 2: Where two to six service disconnecting means in separate enclosures are grouped at one location and supply separate loads from one service drop or lateral, one set of service-entrance conductors shall be permitted to supply each or several such service equipment enclosures.
 
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suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Is the AC Disco "Suitable for use as Service Equipment"? Which conduit feeding it contains the Service Conductors -- the flex or the EMT? If flex, is it permitted to contain Service Conductors (can't tell if it is LFNC or LFMC).
 
F

FREEBALL

Senior Member
Location
york pa usa
if they all three terminate in the same meter, wouldnt they be required to be considered separate services and require sep. grounding. It seems this install was along time ago. I would suggest a new service and be done with the equipment.
 
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suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
Not necessarily. You could ground at the meter (if allowed in that area). Then, as long as the grounded neutral conductor to each enclosure is sized per 250.66 (based on the conductors feeding that panel) you're good to go. If the neutral is undersized (which it could be since the smallest conductor in 250.66 is #8 copper) you'd have to run GEC tails to each disconnect panel.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
FREEBALL said:
if they all three terminate in the same meter, wouldnt they be required to be considered separate services and require sep. grounding. It seems this install was along time ago. I would suggest a new service and be done with the equipment.
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No, one service can have six disconnecting means - they must be grouped together though.

Assuming these are fed from same drop or lateral, this is a legal service, grounding electrode conductor is permitted to be run to the meter or other common point ahead of these panels.

I'm not saying there isn't other problems here, but the three service panels grouped together were and still are allowed.

I want to add that these panels could be fed from three separate meters and would still be legal. Up to six disconnects from the same source is still considered one service.

Should each one of these panels have different characteristics like different voltage, or different phasing, then they would be considered separate services, but each service could still have up to six disconnecting means.
 
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FREEBALL

Senior Member
Location
york pa usa
Ok I understand the ground can originate in the meter per NEC and I actually had an issue such as this with PPL. They require a GEC from the first disconnect to the grounding electrode, where the existing service had the GEC terminating in the meter and actually there wasnt even a bond to the water pipe. I was installing a generator and the meter was staying but they required to have the GEC removed from the meter and terminated in the ATS. There has been alot of changes in the NEC, over the past 10 years that I have been out of the industry. Thanx for the feedback.





kwired said:
No, one service can have six disconnecting means - they must be grouped together though.

Assuming these are fed from same drop or lateral, this is a legal service, grounding electrode conductor is permitted to be run to the meter or other common point ahead of these panels.

I'm not saying there isn't other problems here, but the three service panels grouped together were and still are allowed.

I want to add that these panels could be fed from three separate meters and would still be legal. Up to six disconnects from the same source is still considered one service.

Should each one of these panels have different characteristics like different voltage, or different phasing, then they would be considered separate services, but each service could still have up to six disconnecting means.
Click to expand...
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
FREEBALL said:
Ok I understand the ground can originate in the meter per NEC and I actually had an issue such as this with PPL. They require a GEC from the first disconnect to the grounding electrode, where the existing service had the GEC terminating in the meter and actually there wasnt even a bond to the water pipe. I was installing a generator and the meter was staying but they required to have the GEC removed from the meter and terminated in the ATS. There has been alot of changes in the NEC, over the past 10 years that I have been out of the industry. Thanx for the feedback.
Click to expand...

In some cases the POCO does not want the GEC to land in the meter equipment, because access to the GEC connection point would be behind their meter seal or lock. This is an issue with POCO and not an NEC issue.
 
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