GFCI requirements Vs manufacturer installation instructions
- Thread starter cppoly
- Start date
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- Location
- Massachusetts
In my opinion if the recommendation is in fact part of the listing and labeling it means that equipment cannot be located in a commercial kitchen.
But if it is just a recommendation I would say you can ignore it.
But if it is just a recommendation I would say you can ignore it.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I agree with Bob- recommendation does not overrule the NEC. To be compliant a gfci is required if it is 120v cord and plug
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
Recommending is not requiring. It's no more than suggesting. If the instructions say 'unit must not be plugged into a GFCI outlet', which I doubt, then it would be a 110.3 violation to do it.
- Location
- Massachusetts
And if that is the case it still does not overrule 210.8. You would not be able to locate the unit in a commercial kitchen.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
We've had this discussion before.
A customer of mine sold upscale residential refrigerators, the sort priced to copete with Sub-Zero. I forget the name, but these things cost at least triple what any sane person would spend. Their instructions were quite blunt: Do not put on a GFCI protected circuit.
I posted it here, I think I even provided a link - or, at least, a direct quote from the instructions. The fridges also had a similar sticker on the fridge. The manufacturer was adamant: NO GFCI. I think this was in 2008.
Upshot of the discussion then? Ignore the manufacturer, put it on a GFCI.
Mind you, I think everyone at the time forgot that the only SABC receptacles that had to be GFCI protected were the countertop ones.
UL is not going to list anything that needs to be installed in violation of any law or standard. Period. If there appears to be a conflict between the NEC and manufacturer's instructions, UL would be most interested in hearing about it.
A customer of mine sold upscale residential refrigerators, the sort priced to copete with Sub-Zero. I forget the name, but these things cost at least triple what any sane person would spend. Their instructions were quite blunt: Do not put on a GFCI protected circuit.
I posted it here, I think I even provided a link - or, at least, a direct quote from the instructions. The fridges also had a similar sticker on the fridge. The manufacturer was adamant: NO GFCI. I think this was in 2008.
Upshot of the discussion then? Ignore the manufacturer, put it on a GFCI.
Mind you, I think everyone at the time forgot that the only SABC receptacles that had to be GFCI protected were the countertop ones.
UL is not going to list anything that needs to be installed in violation of any law or standard. Period. If there appears to be a conflict between the NEC and manufacturer's instructions, UL would be most interested in hearing about it.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
I was at Northbrook for a White Book class last week. UL strongly insists that all information provided by the manufacturer is a 110.3(B) instruction.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
That is what they told me last year when I questioned them on it.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Here is the instruction for a sub-zero
IMO that does not allow us to circumvent the NEC. Of course, gfci is not required for the refrigerator- YET. Interesting in one breath they say to follow the code and the other they say otherwise-- If this were a commercial install then it would have to be on a gfci IMO.
IMO that does not allow us to circumvent the NEC. Of course, gfci is not required for the refrigerator- YET. Interesting in one breath they say to follow the code and the other they say otherwise-- If this were a commercial install then it would have to be on a gfci IMO.
brother
Senior Member
What about when UL allowed the 'listing' of lighting switches to use the their ground as a current carrying conductor, basically a neutral. That's one of the reason there is a requirement to have a neutral at the switch box in the 2011 NEC. They found out that the current was 'cumulative' on the egc and it created a shock hazard when lots of those fancy 'energy sensing' switches were installed.
UL did that with their eyes wide open!
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Sorry, Don ... but there's no way UL made such a balnket statement. Push UL on what you think you heard, and you'll get a lesson in UL's 'engineering double-talk.' Let me use but one example to make the point.
"Classified breakers." Square D says 'use only Square D.' UL says the classified breakers are fine. The little sticker in the panel saying 'use only Square D,' and the disclaimers in the instructions, are not - according to UL- considered as part of the listing and labeling instructions.
Naturally, this does put us in the strange position of having to discern exactly what matters and what is simply marketing.
Likewise, look to any UL standard and you will see it references other standards and codes, things like the NEC. Their standards are specifically written to not compromise anything in those other standards. That's why there was such a fuss over getting 'temporary power taps' listed; it was feared that their use would lead to various NEC violations.
More recently, there has been the entire AFCI furball. Relevant here is the assertion by NEMA that if there is any sort of false trip issue, it is the fault of the appliance- that there has NEVER been a false trip caused by a properly functioning listed appliance. (That's NEMA's assertion, not mine).
We also saw the re-engineering of GFCI's, and a change in the listing standard, about 10 years ago. The GFCI changes were specifically aimed at reducing false trips by motors, refrigerators, etc. There were, at the same time, changes made to the appliance standards. Upshot is: no "current" product should trip a GFCI falsely.
I'll repeat it: UL is not going to list anything whose proper use creates a code violation. Period. What you 'were told' is not UL's position at all.
"Classified breakers." Square D says 'use only Square D.' UL says the classified breakers are fine. The little sticker in the panel saying 'use only Square D,' and the disclaimers in the instructions, are not - according to UL- considered as part of the listing and labeling instructions.
Naturally, this does put us in the strange position of having to discern exactly what matters and what is simply marketing.
Likewise, look to any UL standard and you will see it references other standards and codes, things like the NEC. Their standards are specifically written to not compromise anything in those other standards. That's why there was such a fuss over getting 'temporary power taps' listed; it was feared that their use would lead to various NEC violations.
More recently, there has been the entire AFCI furball. Relevant here is the assertion by NEMA that if there is any sort of false trip issue, it is the fault of the appliance- that there has NEVER been a false trip caused by a properly functioning listed appliance. (That's NEMA's assertion, not mine).
We also saw the re-engineering of GFCI's, and a change in the listing standard, about 10 years ago. The GFCI changes were specifically aimed at reducing false trips by motors, refrigerators, etc. There were, at the same time, changes made to the appliance standards. Upshot is: no "current" product should trip a GFCI falsely.
I'll repeat it: UL is not going to list anything whose proper use creates a code violation. Period. What you 'were told' is not UL's position at all.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Thank you, Dennis, for the quote from Sub-Zero.
They're not the brand I was trying to remember, but they are a comparable product. I did not know they also advised against the GFCI.
They're not the brand I was trying to remember, but they are a comparable product. I did not know they also advised against the GFCI.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Aren't most commercial kitchen type refrigerators designed so they can be direct wired? They would not require GFCI protection if they are direct wired. If they are cord and plug connected then the location, and volts/amps ratings will be a factor in determining if GFCI protection is required.
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