EC wanting Square D to come set up the switchgeer

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My company supplied some switchgear for a new manufacturing installation. It's nothing huge, maybe 2000A. An electrical engineer worked with us and Square D to select the gear and breakers. This is pretty common for us. We also supply pumping equipment, air compressors, chillers etc. and design the mechanical installation. The EE we work with does the power distribution design and provides the drawings for that.

So now the electrical contractor on this job is apparently wanting Square D to send somebody to set up the switchgear which means, I believe, just set all the breaker trip points. The EE says he will happily supply the correct settings but that normally the contractor handles actually setting them on site.

What's normal? I've been on a lot of sites with new gear and don't remember ever seeing the switchgear manufacturer on site unless there was a problem with the gear of some part of it.
 
My company supplied some switchgear for a new manufacturing installation. It's nothing huge, maybe 2000A. An electrical engineer worked with us and Square D to select the gear and breakers. This is pretty common for us. We also supply pumping equipment, air compressors, chillers etc. and design the mechanical installation. The EE we work with does the power distribution design and provides the drawings for that.

So now the electrical contractor on this job is apparently wanting Square D to send somebody to set up the switchgear which means, I believe, just set all the breaker trip points. The EE says he will happily supply the correct settings but that normally the contractor handles actually setting them on site.

What's normal? I've been on a lot of sites with new gear and don't remember ever seeing the switchgear manufacturer on site unless there was a problem with the gear of some part of it.

Did the Contractor stated in his bid that he wants the OEM:
  1. Supervise the installation?
  2. Assemble the gear?
  3. Configure the protective settings in the gear?
If the procurment of the gear was not part of the Contractors scope of supply, then the installation documents should have specifically stated the 'supplied by others' and what is the Contracors scope of responsibility for the supplied equipment.

Normally, supplied equipment is turned over to the Contractor with complete assembly and commissioning instructions form teh Manufacturer and the Contract Documents supply the protective settings. The settings and testing is the COntractors responsibility. (Of coruse he is free to subcontract part of all of the work associated with the gear if he feels that he has no direct access to qualified people to execute that work.)
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Setting breakers simply means turning dials.

Commissioning breakers means confirming they trip when they are supposed to (at a minimum via secondary current injection).
Commissioning equipment includes checking the Ground Fault System, not just pushing the test button on the relays well as checking the contractor's installation. You would be surprised how often gear is energized and then it is discovered that internal connections (e.g. across shipping splits) were forgotten. and let's not forget power meters need start-up also.

Remember, You don't get what you don't pay for.
 
Thanks for the responses. The EE, who is under contract to us, will supply the correct settings.
Although I respect the comments on proper commissioning of new switchgear, I can't say I've seen those tests done. I'm not always on site all the time but I'm frequently there when new switchgear is energized for the first time. I do the commissioning on many control panels and am almost always present the first time the feeder to those panels is energized and that often happens immediately after the upstream gear is energized for the first time.

I believe the problem in this case is simply that the contractor is not certain of how to correctly set the trip units even if we provide all the settings.
 

masterinbama

Senior Member
Let me get this straight. Your company sold the gear directly to the owner, correct? If that is the case I as the installing EC would assume no more responsibility than setting it in place, considering that all of the profit and overhead associated with the cost of it was not being paid to me.
 
Well, your bid would not have been accepted. Installing the swutchgear was part of the scope of work he bid on. He's not being asked to assume any responsibility for it beyond the work he does on it. But he contracted to install it. That means set it in place, complete any field assembly required, wire it and perform any and all steps described in the manufacturer's installation instructions. He didn't have to take the job. All of the major equipment on the project was purchased directly by the owner either from us or directly from the manufacturer. That's the way all projects we do are structured. The mechanical equipment is handled the same way. We supply it. The mechanical contractor installs it. Commissioning is our responsibility and some of that is performed by factory technicians and some by us depending on the equipment and on warranty requirements. This situation has never come up before.
 

masterinbama

Senior Member
That's the way all projects we do are structured. The mechanical equipment is handled the same way. We supply it. The mechanical contractor installs it. Commissioning is our responsibility and some of that is performed by factory technicians and some by us depending on the equipment and on warranty requirements. This situation has never come up before.


Then the commissioning and final adjustment of the switchgear should be your responsibility also. Or the EC should be compensated not only for his work but for his potential liability on equipment supplied by people outside of his control.




If a GC or owner buys something as simple as a small lighting package my scope ends after installation and wiring.
 
All he is being asked to do is adjust the trip units on the breakers to the settings provided by the electrical engineer. An hour of his time vs me or the EE or a technician from SqD traveling to the site and do it. If the settings are wrong that's not his responsibility. If a breaker doesn't function properly that's not his responsibility . If wiring is incorrectly installed that IS his responsibility.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
All he is being asked to do is adjust the trip units on the breakers to the settings provided by the electrical engineer. An hour of his time vs me or the EE or a technician from SqD traveling to the site and do it. If the settings are wrong that's not his responsibility. If a breaker doesn't function properly that's not his responsibility . If wiring is incorrectly installed that IS his responsibility.
I'm in agreement with 'bama. Installation in most instances does not include commissioning, for equipment which must be commissioned. In fact, much of the work I do nowadays is commissioning only (just not switchgear).
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Thanks for the responses. The EE, who is under contract to us, will supply the correct settings.
Although I respect the comments on proper commissioning of new switchgear, I can't say I've seen those tests done. I'm not always on site all the time but I'm frequently there when new switchgear is energized for the first time. I do the commissioning on many control panels and am almost always present the first time the feeder to those panels is energized and that often happens immediately after the upstream gear is energized for the first time.

I believe the problem in this case is simply that the contractor is not certain of how to correctly set the trip units even if we provide all the settings.

Setting the circuit breakers is simple.

I agree with others, if you bought the gear YOU OWN it, your job to coordinate startup. What is the big deal you go out there get the coordination study, set the circuit breakers, do no testing as it seems and energize the gear and pray it does not blow up.

You say you commission gear yet you say you say you have not seen test done. What to heck kind on commissioning do you do?
 
Personally I commission custom pump systems, cooling towers, air handlers, dehumidifiers filter systems and a wide variety of controls. I am eventually responsible for either commissioning or coordinating the commissioning of pretty much all parts of the support utilities for the plants we design.

We have never been asked to bring a factory technician in to commission switch gear. It has always been handled by the installing electrical contractor and it is part of the scope they bid on. I wasn't really asking if it was their responsibility. It most definitely is. They now say they are uncertain as to what they need to do and want us to bring in SqD. That's never happened before and I've never seen factory techs on site for switchgear unless something is wrong with it.

I was more curious as to whether factory commissioning of switchgear was common since I've never seen it.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
All he is being asked to do is adjust the trip units on the breakers to the settings provided by the electrical engineer. An hour of his time vs me or the EE or a technician from SqD traveling to the site and do it. If the settings are wrong that's not his responsibility. If a breaker doesn't function properly that's not his responsibility . If wiring is incorrectly installed that IS his responsibility.

How far is it to the site?
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Personally I commission custom pump systems, cooling towers, air handlers, dehumidifiers filter systems and a wide variety of controls. I am eventually responsible for either commissioning or coordinating the commissioning of pretty much all parts of the support utilities for the plants we design.

We have never been asked to bring a factory technician in to commission switch gear. It has always been handled by the installing electrical contractor and it is part of the scope they bid on. I wasn't really asking if it was their responsibility. It most definitely is. They now say they are uncertain as to what they need to do and want us to bring in SqD. That's never happened before and I've never seen factory techs on site for switchgear unless something is wrong with it.

I was more curious as to whether factory commissioning of switchgear was common since I've never seen it.

I don't know about there but here most installing electricians will not have the training of an EE to do the coordination studies or have the expertise to commission electrical gear, while a few high end shops might have EE's on staff that can preform these task it is not common for them to take on the responsibility and the liability of these types of jobs as when something goes wrong it can be very costly, around here it is common that the design engineer of the electrical system is the one who commissions the switch gear and does the coordination studies, if not then it is usually out sourced to other EE's for a price, even down to turning the dials on the breakers.

It's all about the liability chain.
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
The last job I did with Sq D switchgear, the customer supplied it, I installed it and they had a Sq D tech come out and commission it.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
The last job I did with Sq D switchgear, the customer supplied it, I installed it and they had a Sq D tech come out and commission it.
An important point in your statement is the purchasing entity makes the request...
 
If it is his responsibility then it should have been his responsibility to price the gear including P&O and provide submittals to the site engineer for approval.

Not all jobs work that way. The mechanical contractors on our projects don't supply the pumps, chillers, cooling towers, air handlers, dehumidifiers, air compressors or water filter systems but they install them. That is what they bid on when they bid the job. On some jobs, they don't supply a lot of the piping specialties either.

This isn't done to take profit away from them. It's done to maintain control of the project on behalf of the owner. We specialize in utility systems for the particular industry where we do most of our work. We know what works, what works together well and what tends to create problems during installation and down the road for the owner. We sell the owner a function, not a bag of equipment. To guarantee that function, we maintain control of what specific components go into the system. There's very little back and forth and consequent delays during the construction phase of the project due to requests from the installing contractors to substitue some other brand or model for this component or that one. The jobs get done faster and end up working exactly as we intended.

The electrical portion of the project is similar but, because of all the industry and code standards involved in electrical components, the EC generally provides a lot more of the hardware. Sometimes the owner has a brand or other preference that is enforced but otherwise the decision as to what brand name to use is left up to the contractor. That is sometimes not true of big items like main switchgear and large transformers which are more subject to owner preference. But sometimes owner preference reaches down to details at a very low level - what brand of selector switches or disconnect switches are allowed for example. In the end, the owner is paying the bills and gets to decide how they want the purchasing done. Both we and the owners are aware that some contractors are put off by the practice of owner supplied equipment. Some choose not to bid on the project because of that but mostly not. There's still a lot of work to be done and a lot of materials to be supplied.

Project documents make clear at the time of bid what equipment is going to be supplied by the owner. They also make clear that the contractor's scope of work includes complete installation of the equipment to a ready to operate state. Specific exceptions to that are made clear such as factory commissioning of chillers and large air compressors and specialized production equipment. In general, if warranty terms require commissioning by factory technicians, then that's what happens. In some cases, commissioning may not be required by the factory for warranty but is so specialized that it's performed by them (or by us) anyway.

Electrical switchgear doesn't, or at least hasn't, ever fallen into either of those categories. The contractor isn't expected to take responsibility for the function of the gear beyond that which is dependent on the installation but that doesn't mean he shouldn't perform functional tests and adjustments that can only be done after the equipment is installed, wired and energized. If he believes he is being asked to do something that he did not include in his bid or that isn't included in the contract, he is certainly welcome to speak up but that hasn't happened in this case. He says he isn't sure what needs to be done. I don't think an installing EC has ever told us that before.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
It's part you, or the customer providing the gear, the EC is making no profit on the gear, so any possible liability has no reward, and I have learned the hard way that if I have even an inkling the EE may be wrong, the EC right or wrong, is still held responsible if anything happens.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
Not all jobs work that way. The mechanical contractors on our projects don't supply the pumps, chillers, cooling towers, air handlers, dehumidifiers, air compressors or water filter systems but they install them. That is what they bid on when they bid the job. On some jobs, they don't supply a lot of the piping specialties either.

This isn't done to take profit away from them. It's done to maintain control of the project on behalf of the owner. We specialize in utility systems for the particular industry where we do most of our work. We know what works, what works together well and what tends to create problems during installation and down the road for the owner. We sell the owner a function, not a bag of equipment. To guarantee that function, we maintain control of what specific components go into the system. There's very little back and forth and consequent delays during the construction phase of the project due to requests from the installing contractors to substitue some other brand or model for this component or that one. The jobs get done faster and end up working exactly as we intended.

The electrical portion of the project is similar but, because of all the industry and code standards involved in electrical components, the EC generally provides a lot more of the hardware. Sometimes the owner has a brand or other preference that is enforced but otherwise the decision as to what brand name to use is left up to the contractor. That is sometimes not true of big items like main switchgear and large transformers which are more subject to owner preference. But sometimes owner preference reaches down to details at a very low level - what brand of selector switches or disconnect switches are allowed for example. In the end, the owner is paying the bills and gets to decide how they want the purchasing done. Both we and the owners are aware that some contractors are put off by the practice of owner supplied equipment. Some choose not to bid on the project because of that but mostly not. There's still a lot of work to be done and a lot of materials to be supplied.

Project documents make clear at the time of bid what equipment is going to be supplied by the owner. They also make clear that the contractor's scope of work includes complete installation of the equipment to a ready to operate state. Specific exceptions to that are made clear such as factory commissioning of chillers and large air compressors and specialized production equipment. In general, if warranty terms require commissioning by factory technicians, then that's what happens. In some cases, commissioning may not be required by the factory for warranty but is so specialized that it's performed by them (or by us) anyway.

Electrical switchgear doesn't, or at least hasn't, ever fallen into either of those categories. The contractor isn't expected to take responsibility for the function of the gear beyond that which is dependent on the installation but that doesn't mean he shouldn't perform functional tests and adjustments that can only be done after the equipment is installed, wired and energized. If he believes he is being asked to do something that he did not include in his bid or that isn't included in the contract, he is certainly welcome to speak up but that hasn't happened in this case. He says he isn't sure what needs to be done. I don't think an installing EC has ever told us that before.

I guess the low bidder got the job?

Does the EC have any experience in this type of work? Did anyone check?
 
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