Tough call

[kwired]

The bottom line is I don't need an employee of mine soliciting an illegitimate business to my customers either on my time or off my time. When an employee tries to sell my customers day laborers as professional painters, carpenters, pressure washers, etc. with no insurance, no workers comp., no taxes withheld, then he is being a jackass. When he's working for me, he represents me. When he acts like a jackass, it's a reflection of my judgement having him work for me. He ignored our little sit-down talk, and solicited another contractor's client. End of story.
I felt bad at first, but now with a week of time gone by, I am convinced it was the right thing to do, even though I am way behind now and have ticked off customers. I've had to put my own tools back on for the first time in 6 years. But it's worth it. I've been through much worse. This is a guy I would let use a company vehicle to do side jobs on the weekends. I know people need extra money to get by. But when he threatens to screw up my relationship with contractors and clients that's just biting the hand that feeds you. Good riddance.

Now consider same employee doing same thing but through a non profit organization in some way. Maybe they are a church group or other community organization helping out in the community in some way. I may even do something similar myself at times, maybe even ask an employee if they want to volunteer some time to whatever the cause is. I know of many people that have a regular job and a second job, whether or not it is same or similar to what they do at their regular job.

There are lots of people that have second gigs in the entertainment industry in some way or another. I have seen people that are typical really rough construction types yet can sing or play music beautifully, and clean up pretty good when they do perform. Is it wrong to discourage them from doing this because they are supposed to be a professional in some other area?

 

[petersonra]

Now consider same employee doing same thing but through a non profit organization in some way. Maybe they are a church group or other community organization helping out in the community in some way. I may even do something similar myself at times, maybe even ask an employee if they want to volunteer some time to whatever the cause is. I know of many people that have a regular job and a second job, whether or not it is same or similar to what they do at their regular job.

There are lots of people that have second gigs in the entertainment industry in some way or another. I have seen people that are typical really rough construction types yet can sing or play music beautifully, and clean up pretty good when they do perform. Is it wrong to discourage them from doing this because they are supposed to be a professional in some other area?

If the OP does not approve of the practices his former employee was engaging in and he made that clear to the guy along the way, and the guy kept doing it, it seems well within his right to get rid of the guy.

It seems likely to me though that there was a gross misunderstanding between the two of them on just what was considered acceptable.

 

[kwired]

If the OP does not approve of the practices his former employee was engaging in and he made that clear to the guy along the way, and the guy kept doing it, it seems well within his right to get rid of the guy.

It seems likely to me though that there was a gross misunderstanding between the two of them on just what was considered acceptable.

Most cases that is what is going on. I was merely bring something like volunteering for something like Habitat for Humanity into the puzzle. Is it ok for an employer to discourage something like that? After all whatever project the employee is volunteering to help with is in a way a potential lost job to the employer? Same goes for employee helping friends or family whether he gets paid or not. I say let them do what they do, but they must do it on their own time should be the general rule.

 

[petersonra]

Most cases that is what is going on. I was merely bring something like volunteering for something like Habitat for Humanity into the puzzle. Is it ok for an employer to discourage something like that? After all whatever project the employee is volunteering to help with is in a way a potential lost job to the employer? Same goes for employee helping friends or family whether he gets paid or not. I say let them do what they do, but they must do it on their own time should be the general rule.

I am inclined to agree that most personal business should be conducted on one's own time rather than an one's employer's time.

What an employee does solely on his/her own time is usually none of the employer's business, with an occasional exception.

 

[GUNNING]

3744 weekends

3744 weekends

I think charitable organizations shows character. If the company is represented in good standing why not! If the company is being used as a shill then heck no!

I personally like Habitat. I had a similar situation with my first real electrical contractor/employer as a key person. I went to volunteer at a Habitat job and asked the boss if he was OK with me using a shop drill on the Habitat job. Got a lot of scared strange looks. Thought my job was in jeopardy and did not bring the subject up again. It was a good experience. Learned boundaries both with the local city inspectors and with my mom and pop employer. I did not go around promoting myself as the gift to construction nor as an employee of so and so. I did get to know the people at habitat and after 25 years still do.
You have to ask yourself what are the motives behind the person. You only have as much control over someone. That value of that trust is reflected in their paycheck and their loyalty. That value is reflected in their moral makeup and background.
I have some experience with foster children. I have learned the hard way that the ol nature vs nurture is a strong force to combat. When you walk onto a Habitat site the ones there for community service is evident and the ones there for the community have separate and distinct personalities. Some are there for the free lunch. Some are there to get there court papers signed. Some are there because the church says to donate so many hours on the project. Some are there because they like to be outside on a weekend and not in front of the TV or computer and improve themselves.
Life is too short. I have fun where ever I go. You only have so many weekends, then its over.

 

[fisherelectric]

Now consider same employee doing same thing but through a non profit organization in some way. Maybe they are a church group or other community organization helping out in the community in some way. I may even do something similar myself at times, maybe even ask an employee if they want to volunteer some time to whatever the cause is. I know of many people that have a regular job and a second job, whether or not it is same or similar to what they do at their regular job.

I would have no problem with an employee working for Habitat for Humanity. He's welcome to use a company vehicle if he needed it. I would have no problem with an employee selling his services as a musician or computer tech or something that has nothing to do with the industry I'm in.
And we had a definite understanding that he was to leave the contractors that I work for and their clients alone. His actions were negatively impacting both my credibility and reputation as a professional contractor. My reputation depends on my actions as well as the actions of my employees. I've had a hard time with this, and of course there's a lot of backstory, but I would do it again.

 

[petersonra]

nobody here knows what the situation was. you had to make a choice and you did. that you felt the need for someone to agree with you on this forum suggests you may be having second thoughts.

at this point in time it does not matter much if you did the right thing or not. it is done, cannot be undone, and you need to move on.

 

[Electrogrunt]

Tough though it may be, I think you did the right thing for this reason. He was soliciting his own work on your time. That was his mistake, and you have a business to run as well. If he did this on his own time I would not see a big issue with it, but while you are paying him, he should be working, not drumming up sales.

 

[growler]

I have a guy working for me for 5 1/2 years. A little wild, but a good service man. Not scared of work, good attitude. I depend on him to do a lot of work that comes through the door. A lot of personal problems that sometimes affected his work, but it was getting better. He was also a good friend.

nobody here knows what the situation was. you had to make a choice and you did. that you felt the need for someone to agree with you on this forum suggests you may be having second thoughts.

In a big company it's common for the owner/boss not to even know his employees but in a smaller company where the boss/owner is often working with the employee there can be closer than just the employee-employeer relationship.

In a big company the odds are that you never go out for a beer with the boss but in a small company it's common. This sort of thing can make it hard to fire someone even if you know it's the right thing to do.

I think the second thoughts come from the fact that this employee was also a friend. If the were someone unknown to him ( like he is to the rest of us) then the situation would be cut and dried. The guy screwed up and should be replaced. Getting rid of an employee is easy but getting rid of a friend can be hard.

 

[renosteinke]

"What an employee does solely on his/her own time is usually none of the employer's business, with an occasional exception. "

There's the camel sticking his nose under the tent flap ..... is turnabout fair play?

I've worked plenty of places where they did drug testing - yet I am not aware of the police being applied to management. My BS detector refuses to accept that only hourly workers do drugs.

I've been all sorts of places where there were cameras monitoring employee work stations and break rooms. Oddly enough, I've never seen a camera in the boss's office.

I've certainly been places that sought to judge your away-from-work life. Let work find out about your weekend party, and it's "we don't do those sorts of things." Or, the converse: fail to attend the local team's homecoming, and you're out. Then there are 'those people,' folks who are simply suspected of belonging to some particular group, and somehow they're let go because 'it just wasn't working out.' Small wonder that some places have even the 'professionals' unionized.

Folks sure are willing to return to the Middle Ages, and the rules of feudalism, when they think they're going to be the one living in the castle.

I'm rather weary of folks who extol how hard they worked, how they built their business, etc. - then, in the next breath, object to anyone else who tries. I'm- now close the door!

We claim that the 'customer is king.' No one has presented the customers' opinion on this topic. On an industrial level, we just had one of the 'mechanical' contractors advise us that he now has an electrical license - which puts him in competition with the EC's currently used. Would anyone care to argue that it was somehow immoral for this guy to expand into a new field? Do you think the customer cares a whit the established EC's are probably not happy?

Personally, I'm biased in keeping the camel as far from the tent as possible. Too many here seem eager to open the flap and invite ol' One-Hump in.

 

[emfforhire]

The Right Thing

The Right Thing

I have been in business now over 36 years. You did the right thing. Hard to loose someone that produces a lot of work and someone you really like. This would have not worked out.

 

[Speshulk]

He started a handy man service, pressure washing, drywall, painting, etc and had some Hispanics he would hire out.

And the race of his employees is relevant because . . . . ?

 

[renosteinke]

Speshulk ... call me insensitive, prejudiced, or just plain too quick to jump to conclusions ....

but I bet it's safe to say that any reference to 'hispanics' is not a specific ethnic slur, but rather a reference to the dishonest employers who cheat by hiring folks they can take advantage of.

The Unions were faced with this dilemma decades ago: let unfair labor practices be applied to one group with immunity, and that group suddenly has a competitive advantage. If 'illegal' labor had no right to a safe site, no claim on workmans' comp, no need for benefits or witholding, and no right to complain ... then who on earth would hire Union labor?

It's simply dishonest to pretend that 'hispanics' are not different from other groups. Not that everyone else is an angel; but to deny the reality is never any way to have an honest discussion.

Ditto for another assumption, the assumption that this ambitious tradesman simply must be doing things the 'wrong' way. For all we know the man is making a serious effort to comply with the rules, and has all the necessary licenses and insurances.

 

[chris1971]

I have a guy working for me for 5 1/2 years. A little wild, but a good service man. Not scared of work, good attitude. I depend on him to do a lot of work that comes through the door. A lot of personal problems that sometimes affected his work, but it was getting better. He was also a good friend.
He started a handy man service, pressure washing, drywall, painting, etc and had some Hispanics he would hire out. I told him fine, just don't be running your business on my time....no phone calls etc. Then I found out he was soliciting my customers for his handy man services, including the contractors I work for. We do strictly residential. I told him I didn't think it was a good idea several times. Then I finally told him to stop. Leave my customers alone. I told him if he wanted to solicit the 3 or 4 real estate people we work for to do their house inspection punch lists fine, but otherwise leave my customers alone. Today we were working in a house for a contractor who has his own painters. The woman who owned the house showed up and was remarking about what a good job the painters were doing and she needed to get her personal house painted. So this guy pipes up and says he has painters and would love to do her work...here's my card. So I fired him. Now we are both screwed. He's looking for a job and I'm looking for someone to do his.

I believe you did the right thing by firing him. He shouldn't solicite your customers on your time. You gave him several warnings and he didn't listen to you. You'll be ahead in the long run.

 

[CopperTone]

OK, let's put a slightly different spin on things ....

You're hired by a GC to wire the addition to a house. The customer likes you, and wants to talk to you about other jobs - whether it be the hot tub he's planning for next summer, or new lights for the warehouse he manages.

The GC objects, say's you're doing wrong. GC asserts that any work, done anywhere, for this customer is HIS work, and the customer needs to go through him ... even if it's an 'electric only' job, completely unconnected to this project. Indeed, the GC even objects to your having your name & number on your truck as you work on HIS site; says tha't soliciting his customers.

Do you agree?

I've had this happen a few times, I usually call the GC that we work for and mention that "their" customer called me for more work. I do this more out of courtesy and the GC appreciates it. Most all of the time the GC says - just do it and bill them - He doesn't want to get involved. Not to mention if it is some time after the original job is done, the homeowner might tell the GC to pound sand and they can hire anyone they want.

If a GC gave me 5 million $ a year in work, I would call him first and ask if he wanted to be involved in the subsequent work. No sense in biting the hand that feeds you.

 

[barkerf]

The Handy Man

The Handy Man

I have had this same situation a couple of times over the past 30 years. Firing them has always worked in my favor.
You will be surprised at what you find out after they are gone awhile. The truth always surfaces.

 

[mlnk]

I say re-hire the guy. He has had time to think. He is a better man now.
The boss has had time to think too.
This time around, put it all in writing. Have you ever thought-why are we called contractors? Because we are supposed to be writing......contracts! Make a written contract with your employee.
Also, why would an electrician do painting on the side? To get a work-out? Every minute you do another trade, you are not only losing money, but are not learning how to be a better electrician.

 

[gadfly56]

OK, let's put a slightly different spin on things ....

You're hired by a GC to wire the addition to a house. The customer likes you, and wants to talk to you about other jobs - whether it be the hot tub he's planning for next summer, or new lights for the warehouse he manages.

The GC objects, say's you're doing wrong. GC asserts that any work, done anywhere, for this customer is HIS work, and the customer needs to go through him ... even if it's an 'electric only' job, completely unconnected to this project. Indeed, the GC even objects to your having your name & number on your truck as you work on HIS site; says tha't soliciting his customers.

Do you agree?

No, and here's why. The GC is in the business of being a GC. He's not an electrician or he wouldn't have hired me. I don't have an ongoing contractual relationship with him. If it's strictly electrical work the customer is interested in, IMHO the GC doesn't have a dog in this fight. I'd mention it to him as a courtesy, but I'm not going to turn down work out of some misplaced sense of "nobility". If the customer starts asking if I can do a "little" framing and drywalling, now I'm saying no because that's not my business and I might mention the GC's name.

 

[kwired]

Also, why would an electrician do painting on the side? To get a work-out? Every minute you do another trade, you are not only losing money, but are not learning how to be a better electrician.

There could be endless number of reasons non of which have anything to do with him being an electrician. He could have a job at the C-store after hours, stocking shelves at Walmart late at night, or whatever else he finds to make some extra money for all sorts of reasons. Maybe he would prefer to do electrical work for more hours than the boss wants to give him, so he looks for other employment after hours to make the extra $$ he is looking for. There are lots of people out there that work more than one job on a regular basis.