Category 5e in conduit?

[kyled86]

I'm bidding a Family Dollar Store renovation and the plans call for me to install 3/4" raceways above the dropped ceiling for communication wiring "only if required by code." I have looked through the low voltage section of the NEC but cannot find a clear answer. The area above the dropped ceiling will not be used as an air return. Can anyone help me out with this? Thanks.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the ceiling is not a plenum then my guess is that cat 5e is allowed without conduit. Normally we pipe up to the hung ceiling from the outlet box and the rest is done without conduit. Even if it is a plenum you can run plenum grade wire without conduit.

 

[kyled86]

If the ceiling is not a plenum then my guess is that cat 5e is allowed without conduit. Normally we pipe up to the hung ceiling from the outlet box and the rest is done without conduit. Even if it is a plenum you can run plenum grade wire without conduit.

Thats what we normally do as well. Im just used to the plans telling me to stub above the ceiling. Thanks

 

[hurk27]

Around here it all run as open cables on caddy loop hangers or similar, the only part I have seen where I have a problem is I have seen some poor methods of supporting the wire before it goes into the pipe drop, I seen it run over a hook and ty-rapped into an eye that bends the cable in tight radius which is not the way cat-5 or 6 should be done, we always used a small hanger sock (Klems grip) that goes over the wire and allows it to hang without having a sharp bend in the cable.

Also I have seen allot of EMT used as risers from cash registers stands, I have always thought a threaded conduit is required for riser drops, many of the big box store have EMT for the risers as some are over 30'

 

[hbiss]

I'm bidding a Family Dollar Store renovation and the plans call for me to install 3/4" raceways above the dropped ceiling for communication wiring "only if required by code."

Are you in Chicago or surrounding areas?

-Hal

 

[martinpgrant]

Conduit isn't required by code, however if not running conduit, remember you can't attach the wires or supports to the required t-bar support wires and the listing of the cable typically requires j-hooks no more than 5-ft spacing. It may be easier just to run the conduit - specially if you have to add additional cables before your done.

 

[kyled86]

The cabling will be run by others. No sir I am in South Georgia.

 

[Strathead]

I'm bidding a Family Dollar Store renovation and the plans call for me to install 3/4" raceways above the dropped ceiling for communication wiring "only if required by code." I have looked through the low voltage section of the NEC but cannot find a clear answer. The area above the dropped ceiling will not be used as an air return. Can anyone help me out with this? Thanks.

Others have touched on this, but not stated it outright. I believe that Out of town Engineers, place these generic statements on a set of plans to CYA regarding local codes. So, the "code" being referred to in this case is likely any local or state codes, not the NEC. I often see a similar statement regarding MC on plans an specs. Often with reference to what the "building" will allow also. So, if you are working in a mall that doesn't allow MC, you better not bid it that way. IMO, this is just another way to make the Electrical Contractor do the work that the Electrical Engineer should do, for free!

 

[hbiss]

Exactly. It's not an NEC requirement but there may be a local code requirement. The architects are too lazy to find out for themselves so they put the responsibility on you.


-Hal

 

[MarineTech]

The space is not a plenum. 3/4 Trade size conduit is called for.

Follow Article 800 for Communication Circuits (includes ethernet network data).

NEC 2011 800.2 Definition. Communication Raceway (That is, a circular raceway AKA conduit) enclosed channel of nonmetallic materials designed for holding communications wires and cables in plenum, riser, a general-purpose applications.

 

[hbiss]

Follow Article 800 for Communication Circuits (includes ethernet network data).

Are you saying that Art 800 applies to network data cable? And even if it did, are you saying that a definition in 800.2 requires that this cable be installed in conduit?

-Hal

 

[iwire]

IMO, this is just another way to make the Electrical Contractor do the work that the Electrical Engineer should do, for free!

Why the heck should the EE do anything for free?

Like ECs they will do what the customer is willing to pay for. It just happens customers want to pay for less and less.

 

[MarineTech]

Are you saying that Art 800 applies to network data cable? And even if it did, are you saying that a definition in 800.2 requires that this cable be installed in conduit?

-Hal

My intent was, for NEC 2011, the reference to "code" IMO would be Article 800. And for reference, the definition of a communication circular raceway (conduit) is nonmetallic.

To answer your question no. You can use any of the installation methods described in 800 V.

 

[hbiss]

My intent was, for NEC 2011, the reference to "code" IMO would be Article 800. And for reference, the definition of a communication circular raceway (conduit) is nonmetallic.

To answer your question no. You can use any of the installation methods described in 800 V.

Data wiring (ethernet) within a building is covered by Art. 725 not 800.

I don't know where you came up with the definition that a communication circular raceway (conduit) is nonmetallic.

-Hal

 

[GoldDigger]

Data wiring (ethernet) within a building is covered by Art. 725 not 800.

And for those who think that Data Communications is a subset of Communications, check out the definition is 800.2:

Communications Circuit. The circuit that extends voice, audio, video, data, interactive services, telegraph (except radio), outside wiring for fire alarm and burglar alarm from the communications utility to the customer?s communica- tions equipment up to and including terminal equipment such as a telephone, fax machine, or answering machine.

Your TV cable that also provides Internet and your phone copper that provides DSL would be included in that, up to the point that the reach the cable or DSL modem or wireless router.

 

[kwired]

Why the heck should the EE do anything for free?

Like ECs they will do what the customer is willing to pay for. It just happens customers want to pay for less and less.

Why should the contractor do anything for free? Customer doesn't want to pay for anything, but does want a top notch result. Designer gets first shot at it so contractor is stuck with anything the designer didn't actually do. Right or wrong, that is just the way it is.

 

[iwire]

Why should the contractor do anything for free? Customer doesn't want to pay for anything, but does want a top notch result. Designer gets first shot at it so contractor is stuck with anything the designer didn't actually do. Right or wrong, that is just the way it is.

Nobody is making the EC do anything, they can choose not to bid.


My point was blame the customer not the EE.

 

[MarineTech]

Data wiring (ethernet) within a building is covered by Art. 725 not 800.

I don't know where you came up with the definition that a communication circular raceway (conduit) is nonmetallic.

-Hal

For NEC 2011.

I guess it depends on the AHJ and Engineer in charge.

From what I see the data in 800 refers to Shielded Twisted Pair for WAN and LAN Ethernet communication within a building. Wire type for routing within the building is referenced per Table 800.154(a).

Under 800.2 a comminications raceway is defined as nonmetallic, and a circular raceway is a conduit, so to me there is no confusion that this type of wiring method (sch 40 and 80 PVC) is approved if I choose to use it.

However, beyond the 725 and 800 debate, it may be more productive to focus on addressing the routing of data (Cat5e) and signal (Class 2), in the same vicinity as AC power and electrical noise sources. Because once wiring method is selected we then have to decide how to route it.

 

[kwired]

Nobody is making the EC do anything, they can choose not to bid.


My point was blame the customer not the EE.

True.

And you can always blame anybody you want for anything you don't like, may not get what you want, but you can do so:happyyes:.

 

[hurk27]

For NEC 2011.

I guess it depends on the AHJ and Engineer in charge.

From what I see the data in 800 refers to Shielded Twisted Pair for WAN and LAN Ethernet communication within a building. Wire type for routing within the building is referenced per Table 800.154(a).

Under 800.2 a communications raceway is defined as nonmetallic, and a circular raceway is a conduit, so to me there is no confusion that this type of wiring method (sch 40 and 80 PVC) is approved if I choose to use it.

However, beyond the 725 and 800 debate, it may be more productive to focus on addressing the routing of data (Cat5e) and signal (Class 2), in the same vicinity as AC power and electrical noise sources. Because once wiring method is selected we then have to decide how to route it.

Here is some commentary from the 2011 hand book that should clear this up a little:

Section 90.3, covering the structure of the NEC, specifies
that Chapter 8 (comprised of Articles 800, 810, 820, 830,
and 840) covers communications systems and is not subject
to the requirements of Chapters 1 through 7, other than
where a requirement from these chapters is specifically cited
by a Chapter 8 requirement. As an example, 800.24 references
300.4(D) and 300.11, 800.44(A)(3) references
225.14(D), and 800.90(C) references 500.5 and 505.5.
Although information technology equipment systems
are often used for or with communications systems, Article
800 does not cover wiring of this equipment. Instead, Article
645 provides requirements for wiring contained solely
within an information technology equipment (computer)
room. (See 645.4 for a description of the type of information
technology equipment room to which Article 645 applies.)
Article 725 provides requirements for wiring that extends
beyond a computer room and also covers wiring of local
area networks within buildings. Article 760 covers wiring
requirements for fire alarm systems.
In some cases, telephone system wiring is also used for
data transmission, which is covered by Article 800. Telephone
company central offices are exempt from the requirements of
Article 800 by 90.2(B)(4). The arrangement of the requirements
in Article 800 is similar to those of Articles 725, 760,
770, 820, 830, and 840. Communications equipment (see Article
100 for definition), such as the private automatic branch
exchange shown in Exhibit 800.1, and all of the premises wiring
for a communications circuit (see 800.2 for definition), are
subject to the requirements of Article 800.

An inspector who say other wise is clearly miss informed as to what section covers networks, after the modems or computer rooms the network cable become an article 725 issue.