Fire Alarm Wire and Paint

[binney]

We're doing a church that will have a ceiling open up to the deck. They are spraying the entire deck and joists black. We have red FA wire running above the joists, the general has concerns that we will be in violation if we allow them to paint the fire alarm wire.

As long as it has the proper rating is there any violation in letting them paint our wires?

 

[gadfly56]

We're doing a church that will have a ceiling open up to the deck. They are spraying the entire deck and joists black. We have red FA wire running above the joists, the general has concerns that we will be in violation if we allow them to paint the fire alarm wire.

As long as it has the proper rating is there any violation in letting them paint our wires?

The answer to this question comes in two parts.

1. Does the local jurisdiction require that the fire alarm cable have a red jacket? NFPA-72 does not require any specific jacket color for fire alarm indicating/signaling circuits or notification appliance circuits.

2. Does the cable's listing allow you to paint it? For this, contact the manufacturer.

 

[binney]

Had office check guy check the the compatibility of the wire and paint. He said A-OK. We've actually used white FA wire in the past, never had a problem, but the general insists it can't be painted.

 

[nhfire77]

Had office check guy check the the compatibility of the wire and paint. He said A-OK. We've actually used white FA wire in the past, never had a problem, but the general insists it can't be painted.

There are a lot of fire alarm expert GCs out there. :lol: I bet he is recalling a local amendment or previousl job spec (unless there really is one in place on this one). I get that friendly advice all the time.

Current job I'm doing, the GC said white FA cable doesnt exist, so 'rip out that white communications cable.' :thumbsup: right after you sign the change order with a piece of the white FPL stapled to it and my approved spec book with white cable in it.



I have experienced a FD requiring red cable, unpainted. It was a multibuilding multi arce sized outdoor shopping mall. The theory was, tenant changes will be a plenty, and FA was the LL responsiblity, so he wanted them easily identified to alieviate it being cut by the 1000's of potential vendors in the 200+ spaces. He had a point and all parties agreed. The painters had to tape off all the FA cable. Man, that looked like a pain

 

[JohnCA]

it is up to local jurisdiction to request that the color of the wire be red. The only reasoning that I heard from some AHJ's in my area is ?You cannot identify it as fire alarm wiring because it isn?t red anymore.? but as far NFPA 72 or 760 there is no such codes. you can always use black jacketed FPL cable to satisfy the GC if he insists.

My Joutney Towards NICET & PE Certification

 

[pomsjosephm]

In some areas here in CT it is not allowed to be painted over because (1) you can not identify the cable type such as FPL or FPLP. (2) any contractor
who comes in "most" cases will not cut the red wire. If it's painted it looks like communication or any other cable.

 

[gadfly56]

In some areas here in CT it is not allowed to be painted over because (1) you can not identify the cable type such as FPL or FPLP. (2) any contractor
who comes in "most" cases will not cut the red wire. If it's painted it looks like communication or any other cable.

I hadn't thought about (1), but you are absolutely correct, this could be an issue. Sort of like painting over the label on a fire door. It used to be a little "Goof Off" could solve that problem, but a lot of doors I see nowadays have the foil-type pressure labels, not the embossed metal plates, and if you try the "Goof Off" it just erases the whole label. Then someone gets to buy a new door.

 

[pomsjosephm]

I hadn't thought about (1), but you are absolutely correct, this could be an issue. Sort of like painting over the label on a fire door. It used to be a little "Goof Off" could solve that problem, but a lot of doors I see nowadays have the foil-type pressure labels, not the embossed metal plates, and if you try the "Goof Off" it just erases the whole label. Then someone gets to buy a new door.

Gadfly56 first off, thank you for answering my question in regards to the elevator recall. 2nd, I saw a painter who was scraping the label off to paint a door. I said to him "you know that's fire rated" and he replied "so"....and I said "okay, the marshal is going to have you replace the door because the label isn't there"
he said "no he won't" I said okay again and I asked "how many doors did you paint?" he replied "6" I said "don't paint the rest of them because it's going to cost more he said "sure". So I do my thing with the mag holders and the marshal is walking with me and we were doing tests to get the CO to put the fire alarm in operation and then we get to the door holders. The door is in the open position and then he looks for the label..:happyno: He goes, "where is the label?" I said I don't know ask the painter. He fails the CO and had them replace 16 doors :roll:.

 

[gadfly56]

Gadfly56 first off, thank you for answering my question in regards to the elevator recall. 2nd, I saw a painter who was scraping the label off to paint a door. I said to him "you know that's fire rated" and he replied "so"....and I said "okay, the marshal is going to have you replace the door because the label isn't there"
he said "no he won't" I said okay again and I asked "how many doors did you paint?" he replied "6" I said "don't paint the rest of them because it's going to cost more he said "sure". So I do my thing with the mag holders and the marshal is walking with me and we were doing tests to get the CO to put the fire alarm in operation and then we get to the door holders. The door is in the open position and then he looks for the label..:happyno: He goes, "where is the label?" I said I don't know ask the painter. He fails the CO and had them replace 16 doors :roll:.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Sorry, couldn't help myself. I know, I know, I'm an evil person...

 

[iwire]

In some areas here in CT it is not allowed to be painted over because (1) you can not identify the cable type such as FPL or FPLP.

Hmm, how do they identify it when it is behind Sheetrock or in conduit?

 

[del91574]

Since I'm in the same state as POM, the only time I've seen a requirement for red cable is in the case of a multi tennant shared system building, as tennants leave and renovations are common, to help the owner maintain system integrity on the guaranteed renovations that are going to happen.

Barring that, only out of the ordinary was red painted fittings or JB/covers to help in the wild.

 

[pomsjosephm]

Hmm, how do they identify it when it is behind Sheetrock or in conduit?

1) If it's bedhind sheet rock then hopefully it had a rough in inspection but again you will still be able to find labeling
of the cable.
2) If it's conduit lets hope no one has spliced inside a conduit (yes I have seen this done). Conduit is only allowed 4
90 degree bends or a total of 360 degrees before a junction box is required which also shall be accessible. You can identify
the wiring in the box or behind a device etc.. When in doubt, rip it out and do it over is what some say :roll:.

You can't buy or teach common sense. I would never use white fire alarm cable. Red=something important to most which is not
a guarantee a contractor won't cut it but it helps. Also, I now only keep FPLP because I have found that despite the cost of the cable
it's much easier and efficient to use FPLP because it's at the top of the hierarchy for cables substitutes. It can be used in place of riser and general use etc..

 

[iwire]

1) If it's bedhind sheet rock then hopefully it had a rough in inspection but again you will still be able to find labeling
of the cable.
2) If it's conduit lets hope no one has spliced inside a conduit (yes I have seen this done). Conduit is only allowed 4
90 degree bends or a total of 360 degrees before a junction box is required which also shall be accessible. You can indentify
the wiring in the box or behind a device etc.. When in doubt, rip it out and do it over is what some say :roll:

You are not honestly suggesting painting fire alarm cable is a violtion are you?

Consider exposed unpainted fire alarm cables running unspliced across a ceiling.

Could the owner of the space install a dropped Sheetrock ceiling in the space to conceal the cables?

Now lets say the costs of that dropped ceiling where to much so there hire a painter to spray it all white.

How can you possibly say concealing the cable with rock is ok but you can't conceal it with paint?

It makes no sense and is not supported by the NEC.

 

[pomsjosephm]

You are not honestly suggesting painting fire alarm cable is a violtion are you?

Consider exposed unpainted fire alarm cables running unspliced across a ceiling.

Could the owner of the space install a dropped Sheetrock ceiling in the space to conceal the cables?

Now lets say the costs of that dropped ceiling where to much so there hire a painter to spray it all white.

How can you possibly say concealing the cable with rock is ok but you can't conceal it with paint?

It makes no sense and is not supported by the NEC.

1) Painting cable is not prohibited in the NEC nor in the NFPA 72. The NEC only talks about re-identifying cable but that is for high voltage. Now if you look at the manufactures specs for the wire and it says "do not paint" then you must follow manufactures specs. So no it's not a violation to paint the cable and usually it comes down to the inspector or AHJ. When you use the word "violation" that means there is an applicable code that is being violated and in this case I believe there is not. I also took a glance at the 2011 code.
2)Exposed fire alarm cable is allowed above 7 feet and must be properly supported per NFPA 72 furthermore, if the cable is susceptible to damage it must
be protected IE: Conduit, Greenfield etc.
3)Yes, the owner can install a dropped sheet rock ceiling to conceal cable however any splices that are in J-boxes still need to be accessible, using the appropriate extension boxes, mud rings and blank plates listed and used for their use.
4) If the painter sprays your wire it is still identifiable via J-boxes at the device or in the control panel (you hope). I say "you hope" because some painters do not mask boxes and of course all your cable turns white especially if you pre-stripped the cable put it the box until final devices can be installed.

If you look up in 5-10 big chain stores the whole ceiling is sprayed white including the fire alarm cable but again some are not. Show me the code in the NEC
that says it does not support it. There is a big difference between "should" and "shall" and there isn't even a "should" on the suggestion. I am not saying it's right or wrong the bottom line it's up to the AHJ and if the GC requires it to be a certain color for aesthetic reasons on open ceilings etc..just ask the AHJ. Always have good plans and your own riser diagram that shows, device, locations, device type, cable type, and of course junction locations even if it's in the new work box of a notification appliance.

 

[jusme123]

You are not honestly suggesting painting fire alarm cable is a violtion are you?

Consider exposed unpainted fire alarm cables running unspliced across a ceiling.

Could the owner of the space install a dropped Sheetrock ceiling in the space to conceal the cables?

Now lets say the costs of that dropped ceiling where to much so there hire a painter to spray it all white.

How can you possibly say concealing the cable with rock is ok but you can't conceal it with paint?

It makes no sense and is not supported by the NEC.

760.176(G) for NPLFA cables and 760.179(I) for PLFA cables state the cables must be marked. The painting prohibits identification, therefor a violation. If the cable is installed in conduit, run above a drop ceiling, run behind sheetrock, or hid behing the curtain, it still has to be identified as required by the above sections. Same argument as SE cables being painted, it shouldn't be. If the code is enforced is separate issue.

 

[iwire]

760.176(G) for NPLFA cables and 760.179(I) for PLFA cables state the cables must be marked.

Yes it does

The painting prohibits identification, therefor a violation.

No.

Painting it no more prohibits identification then sheet rock or pipe.

If the cable is installed in conduit, run above a drop ceiling, run behind sheetrock, or hid behing the curtain, it still has to be identified as required by the above sections.

It is still identified, no one has suggested removing the marking.

Same argument as SE cables being painted, it shouldn't be. If the code is enforced is separate issue.

It is not a code violation to paint SE or NM.

 

[pomsjosephm]

Yes it does



No.

Painting it no more prohibits identification then sheet rock or pipe.


It is still identified, no one has suggested removing the marking.



It is not a code violation to paint SE or NM.

I took a look at 760.179(I) and it just states it has to be marked but not how. An installer can still mark the cable with a permanent white label, marker or other means for the cable type in accordance with table 760.179(I) (FPLP),(FPLR),(FPL) even after it has been painted. The NEC is telling you to mark the cable in accordance with the table not the method used to mark the cable. The cable is also still identifiable at the device, junction boxes and at the control panel. Again, it does not say you can not paint over it and no it does not inhibit the cable etc.. so interpretation should be left up to the AHJ also look at manufactures specs on the wire. Just ask the question, plain and simple.

 

[gadfly56]

Jacket Degradation

Jacket Degradation

The marking issue aside, my concern would be what effect painting might have on the physical/electrical characteristics of the jacket and/or conductor insulation. If the paint contains VOC's, will they degrade the jacket? For this reason, I'd want to check with the cable manufacturer before painting, and BE SPECIFIC about the paint I intended to use.

 

[jusme123]

I took a look at 760.179(I) and it just states it has to be marked but not how. An installer can still mark the cable with a permanent white label, marker or other means for the cable type in accordance with table 760.179(I) (FPLP),(FPLR),(FPL) even after it has been painted. The NEC is telling you to mark the cable in accordance with the table not the method used to mark the cable. The cable is also still identifiable at the device, junction boxes and at the control panel. Again, it does not say you can not paint over it and no it does not inhibit the cable etc.. so interpretation should be left up to the AHJ also look at manufactures specs on the wire. Just ask the question, plain and simple.

Lets draw up a scenario , inspector show up on job of new building, FPLP cable is used but is painted to match the ceiling, the inspector climbs a latter, grabs the painted cable and can not even see the red cable because of the paint, yet alone read the listing markings on the cable, he fails you for 760.179(I). How does he verify you used FPLP where FPLR cable is required?

 

[jusme123]

Iwire,
How does the inspector verify you used FPLR cable instead of FPLP, by looking at the cable markings, take your word of it, or look at a handmade marking you made with your sharpie? If its painted after inspection, that's one thing, but before inspection, good luck with that.

A truly verifiable, code compliant fire inspection trumps any aesthetic excuse of painting the listed markings on a fire alarm cable.