Aside from reaching the cold water pipe way past the "within 5 feet of the entrance to the building", what is the proper wiring method supposed to be for the #14Cu conductor that pokes thru the floor boards searching to clamp to any water pipe. Unprotected, without strain relief or proper termiations to the box. How does any one believe the old tried and true method of getting a ground into an two wire outlet box is ok in 2013?:dunce: wha?
Residential 2 wire recptacles cold water pipe again
- Thread starter wyreman
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I don't understand what you are asking.
Whenever I see a #14 clamped to a cold water pipe I always try to understand how this can ever be seen as an approved wiring method.
There is
no proper strain relief
no protection against damage
no proper fitting to the box
no approved staple
Then I remember that using the cold water at the nearest point on the GEC was limited somewhere to the first 5 feet on entrance to the building.
So between these two images, I cannot see how this is always treated as a normal installation.
Old timey yes, but how can you do that with new wire and a shiny clamp?
When you pick up K&T you carefully land it in a box and then go on with the normal procedures for, say - Romex.
When you have a #4 GEC to the cold water, you go to the first 5 feet in the entrance, and then you land the wire on an approved clamp on both sides.
The #4 solid does not need to be protected against damage
#6 or stranded #4 needs better treatment like pvc or emt or ac cable
How does this #14 seem so normal installation in 2013.
Back in the '70s I agree but not now...:dunce:
There is
no proper strain relief
no protection against damage
no proper fitting to the box
no approved staple
Then I remember that using the cold water at the nearest point on the GEC was limited somewhere to the first 5 feet on entrance to the building.
So between these two images, I cannot see how this is always treated as a normal installation.
Old timey yes, but how can you do that with new wire and a shiny clamp?
When you pick up K&T you carefully land it in a box and then go on with the normal procedures for, say - Romex.
When you have a #4 GEC to the cold water, you go to the first 5 feet in the entrance, and then you land the wire on an approved clamp on both sides.
The #4 solid does not need to be protected against damage
#6 or stranded #4 needs better treatment like pvc or emt or ac cable
How does this #14 seem so normal installation in 2013.
Back in the '70s I agree but not now...:dunce:
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Art. 250.130 is what we are referencing here. I don't see why strain relief etc is necessary at the ground clamp but it can be done if need be. The reason for the wire to be connected to the box is to prevent conductors from exiting the box accidentally when folding the wires in the box during installation of devices and such. There is no real issue if the equipment grounding conductor gets push back out of the box.
I am more surprised that you are allowed to extend a 2 wire circuit as long as the egc is present.
I am more surprised that you are allowed to extend a 2 wire circuit as long as the egc is present.
And the five foot rule is just to bond the water.
After that you can hang off of anywhere on the gec,
even presumably, from an abandoned length.
These scabby wires usually found in old shacks!
I would always prefer installing a gfi
Maybe maybe if he really had a sensitive comp or stereo that called for ground
Guess its also ok to just grab anywhere on the presurrized gas pipe
After that you can hang off of anywhere on the gec,
even presumably, from an abandoned length.
These scabby wires usually found in old shacks!
I would always prefer installing a gfi
Maybe maybe if he really had a sensitive comp or stereo that called for ground
Guess its also ok to just grab anywhere on the presurrized gas pipe
While were at it,
what about the common practice of hanging new fixtures off of old gaslights
pressurize gaslights On old (K&t)
I had one customer tell me another electrician came out there
And bid $55,000 to repair the hallway light because
he had to redo the whole Victorian two Victorians together
what about the common practice of hanging new fixtures off of old gaslights
pressurize gaslights On old (K&t)
I had one customer tell me another electrician came out there
And bid $55,000 to repair the hallway light because
he had to redo the whole Victorian two Victorians together
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
No, because after the first 5 feet the metal pipe is not a GROUNDING ELECTRODE so you either have to connect to the grounding electrode conductor itself or within 5'.
So what do you you call the water pipe that
the #14 clamps to when it bonds to the water?
The water pipe in the building is not a
grounding electrode conductor after the 5'
But it's good enough for the outlet because it is calledpthe...?
the #14 clamps to when it bonds to the water?
The water pipe in the building is not a
grounding electrode conductor after the 5'
But it's good enough for the outlet because it is calledpthe...?
Last edited:
- Location
- Connecticut
- Occupation
- Engineer
I call it a Code violation.
Its not good enough for the outlet. 250.130(C)(1) permits connection to any accessible point on the grounding electrode system. The water pipe after 5' from the point of entrance is NOT part of the grounding electrode system.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Way back in years gone by it was permissible. It once was in the NEC that all metal pipes were required to be electrically continuous but somewhere along the line they figured out that pipe fitters did not have a NEC and the pipe codes did not require that metal be replaced with metal.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
It is no longer compliant to hit water pipe wherever convenient, piping is no longer considered to be electrically continuous.
If it is in fact electrically continuous, it is a better practice IMO than bootlegging a neutral conductor which I have seen a lot of but seldom see a bond to a water pipe for these types of installations
.
If it is in fact electrically continuous, it is a better practice IMO than bootlegging a neutral conductor which I have seen a lot of but seldom see a bond to a water pipe for these types of installations
.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
How is it electrically continuous when a plumber adds a plastic pipe in the loop?It is no longer compliant to hit water pipe wherever convenient, piping is no longer considered to be electrically continuous.
If it is in fact electrically continuous, it is a better practice IMO than bootlegging a neutral conductor which I have seen a lot of but seldom see a bond to a water pipe for these types of installations
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
If that happens then it disqualifies my saying: "If it is in fact electrically continuous"
If you have bootlegged neutral for EGC then you have any voltage drop on the neutral imposed on the EGC. If you have nonmetallic section of piping you are back to an ungrounded receptacle. I guess you have to decide which is lesser of two evils if you are going to tolerate anything not up to current codes.
Voltage drop on the neutral is always there when loaded, no EGC at all is really only a problem when a piece of equipment has a fault in it. Indoor dry locations you could have energized frames on things for really long time and never notice any problem. I am not condoning intentionally doing this but it is what it is.
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